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Thread: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

  1. #91

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    As we all know, resolution is the ability to resolve two different details close together, and, Corran, I have to say, in your crop example, I don't see a significant difference in resolution, and I am really trying to look for it. I opened it up in my large display, and spent 5 minuets looking at both carefully. Maybe there's a resolution difference at the 20ish % level, which means it was resolving say 1800 dpi the other one is resolving 2200, or something like that.
    The branches in the back are resolved the same level in both cases pretty much, and several other details (edges, wood grain, etc) are really close too, and it's coming down to almost single pixels.
    I can also say there is definitely a difference in tonality/contrast and the eye tends to associate contrast with resolution.
    I don't see high-frequency noise in either one either (the one that the eye dislikes the most).
    This is just what my eyes are saying.

  2. #92

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    As we all know, resolution is the ability to resolve two different details close together, and, Corran, I have to say, in your crop example, I don't see a significant difference in resolution, and I am really trying to look for it. I opened it up in my large display, and spent 5 minuets looking at both carefully. Maybe there's a resolution difference at the 20ish % level, which means it was resolving say 1800 dpi the other one is resolving 2200, or something like that.
    The branches in the back are resolved the same level in both cases pretty much, and several other details (edges, wood grain, etc) are really close too, and it's coming down to almost single pixels.
    I can also say there is definitely a difference in tonality/contrast and the eye tends to associate contrast with resolution.
    I don't see high-frequency noise in either one either (the one that the eye dislikes the most).
    This is just what my eyes are saying.

    There is no difference, from post 2 https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557267 there is smashing evidence that the epson is totally equal even if pixel-peeping at x20.

    Both Lachlan Young and Bryan are perfectly able to say that white is black and that black is white, their hate does not allow them to see beyond their nose (Take with humor)

    But it's quite interesting they persist in negating the evidence, because this discredits themselves in front anyone having a pair of eyes. That side by side is smashing.

  3. #93

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I don't know, maybe you need to calibrate your monitor. Certainly "if you are not a total dummy you will match the tonalities with a few clicks" is an interesting statement accompanied by such an obvious difference in different parts of the image (also clear in the crop).

    Dear Bryan,

    if you read well the image in the right is edited to surpasse the Howtek contrast, if you want a perfect matching you are not able to edit... no problem I'll teach how to do it, wait a moment while I prepare the image....


    Here again...

    This is the tonal edition mostly matching the barn:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Then to match the Peter Finge's edition, some strokes are necessary with the underexposure tool, on the trunks and on the grass, I guess he did that to make those elements less ditracting and to concentrate attention on the Barn, perhaps some additional strokes would be necessary on the grass, but this is enough for your teaching today, clearly tonality matches.





    It's always pleasure to teach you something. If you remember one day I informed you that your Cezanne only has 8000 pixels in the sensor, so a 4x5" can only be scanned 2000dpi in the Cezanne if not wanting to stitch crops. So you were machinegunning the Epson that scans 2900 effective while you never had scanned better than 1700 effective from 2000 dpi hardware scans. I can link the post.

    So when you throw dirt over the Epson, it's important to note for what's worth is your criterion.

  4. #94
    Pali K Pali K's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    ... See you on page 25!
    Are we there yet?

  5. #95
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    I can also say there is definitely a difference in tonality/contrast and the eye tends to associate contrast with resolution.
    Yes, that was precisely what I was pointing out. The statement earlier was "identical tonality" etc.
    The "crop" was from the un-enlarged sample so not much to make out in resolution differences.

    Anyway, I'll just point out here that none of the folks on the forum like me, Peter, Ari, etc. are getting rid of our high-end scanners...wonder why? Most users of the Epson here on the forum agree a 4x enlargement being about optimal. Alan has said he would "pay for a drum scan" if he wanted "the best" out of his negative. And Pali has said, he's not getting rid of his drum scanners (speaking of which, LOL Pali!). Meanwhile the person who has never used any of these devices wants to go round and round and round trying to justify the results as being "identical" after sharpening the ever living crap out of the scan. If he thinks it's "as good" then good for him. If its good enough for others, great. Some folks scan their film and never even print it, which is fine if that's what they are into. Personally I don't even print from scans often since about 2014, instead making silver gelatin prints.
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  6. #96

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Pali K View Post
    Are we there yet?
    Yeaah !!!!!

    Hello Pali, any opinion on next ?



    Click image for larger version. 

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    We got smashing evidence of the Epson matching the Creo and the Scanmate for Portra.

    Now we have a new smash, a Howtek 8000 drum scan (4k dpi) made by P. Finge vs V850 made by Alan.



    I guess a single challenge remains, V850 w/ multi-exposure vs Drum for Velvia, the rest it has been clarified.

  7. #97

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Meanwhile the person who has never used any of these devices wants to go round and round and round trying to justify the results as being "identical" after sharpening the ever living crap out of the scan.

    This is identical, all scans made by Pali, two Creos, Drum(bottom-right) and an Epson(top-left).

    Where is the difference ?

    Have you a criterion to say what's identical or you even lack this?

    I sharpened the inside on the red rectangle. Where is the "crap"? (You use the "crap" word too much)





    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1479178
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...-Drum-Scanners

  8. #98
    Pali K Pali K's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Bryan, my drum scanners are loved as much as Pere loves his Epson so absolutely not ever getting rid of them Hahah.

    Pere, you have a remarkable ability to use my scans and my opinions to say the opposite of what I say and tell me that my own work is not what I know. I do love your spirit but itís mind boggling logic.

    You and I donít disagree (never have) on two things.

    1. Epson is a great scanner.
    2. For Black and White large format film, most will be happy making wonderful scans from an Epson. This is what majority of the members do here so no need to pixel peep when what you see is what you love.

    I pretty much disagree with all of your other conclusions. And if I may be bold enough to say, I am starting to believe that most Drum Scanners who canít get amazing colors from Negatives are just not capable of using their machines to its potential. Always felt this way and always will because I have first hand experience dismissing the general belief that Tangos werenít suited for Color Negatives. This is simply not true but you do need to know how to use the darn thing to scan what youíre scanning. Epson is the easiest because itís targeted for consumer market so most will master the ability to get good results from it before mastering more complex digital workflows.

    For others benefit, I shoot everything from 35mm to 11x14 and my most shot films are Velvia 50 followed with Portra 160/400. When it comes to my needs, Epson is the least capable scanner by every measurable and observable standard that I know of. I am no expert but I am no dummy either and unfortunately Pere, youíre not experienced enough with the variety of scanners being discussed to convince me on anything differently. Keyboard courage, google search, and referencing others work with your absolute opinions donít make you an authority - sorry. That said, I have this weird respect for your love for an Epson.

    Finally, I am also of the opinion that the latest DSLR setup is probably even superior than drum scanners. I just donít have the setup or the knowledge to claim anything personally yet and I have zero desire to find out because I think ~7000 DPI from my ScanMate is silly enough for any stupidly large prints I want to make even from 35mm.

    Peace and love folks. I am done

    Pali

  9. #99
    Pali K Pali K's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Yeaah !!!!!

    Hello Pali, any opinion on next ?



    .....
    Yes, a fantastic shot and two fantastic scans of it that I would be happy with.

    If I scanned with Epson first, I would wonder ďwhat ifĒ and might drum or pro flatbed scan it just like Alan did. If I scanned with drum or pro flatbed first, I would be at peace that I didnít miss anything.

    Pali

  10. #100

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Pali K View Post
    When it comes to my needs, Epson is the least capable scanner by every measurable and observable standard that I know of. I am no expert but I am no dummy either and unfortunately Pere, youíre not experienced enough with the variety of scanners being discussed to convince me on anything differently. Keyboard courage, google search, and referencing others work with your absolute opinions donít make you an authority - sorry.
    Same thoughts here as well - thanks for expressing them so concisely and clearly.

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