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Thread: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

  1. #51
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    What I find interesting is how blurry my Epson V850 scan is and how it gets so much better when sharpening. Compare my first two posts on page 1 to see the difference.
    That's because the Epson doesn't resolve the grain. It's granularity that starts to look bad first when sharpening. Thus, the Epson scan can take more sharpening.

    But why are you worried about any of this? You have an 850. Why not just get to taking pictures, making scans, making prints? These type of nuance questions can only be answered by each individual. Do the work, and make your own decisions.
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  2. #52

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    Others may have different applications, uses and final products and may benefit from more capability/quality than what the Epson can offer.
    Of course, if scanning 35mm film perhaps we would have another situation, but this is a LF forum. The amazing thing is that we are obtaining smashing evidence that for LF the Epson is as good as a Howtek 8000 drum even for 1m prints from 4x5".

    Not the first time... not long ago we saw the same happening with Portra 160 film when comparing a V700 to two Creos and to a Scanmate 11000 drum :

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1479178
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...-Drum-Scanners

    One of these days we'll have some icing for the cake, Epson V850 vs drum performance for dense Velvia, using multi-exposure.

    One thing is true, the Epson scan has to be proficiently edited to match what the drum does.

  3. #53

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    That's because the Epson doesn't resolve the grain. It's granularity that starts to look bad first when sharpening. Thus, the Epson scan can take more sharpening.

    But why are you worried about any of this? You have an 850. Why not just get to taking pictures, making scans, making prints? These type of nuance questions can only be answered by each individual. Do the work, and make your own decisions.
    It is also important helping others to make wise decisions.

    I can post several dozens of posts from some members here stating that the Epson was "Crap", "Shit", "not worth beyond x2 enlargements", "limited to x4 prints", "infame color"... All false, and missleading other people...

    Today one was saying that the drum scan was looking much better at x1 enlargement, LOL.

    (https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557499)


    But this is smashing evidence that the Epson is not "crap" or "shit", but a prosumer equipment that will deliver top notch Pro results in the right hands for LF:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557536


    This should be made clear, because some people having commercial interests have been saying plain lies about the Epson.

  4. #54
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Yes I did, and Pere, if you can't see clearly how the two images have differing tonality and contrast in different parts of the image in your "comparison" then you are blind. This is an obvious difference and one wonders why. Anyway, I have issues with the oversharpening on the Epson, as I have said before. But let's keep marching on! 6 pages already!
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  5. #55

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    Negative is mine, Tmax 100, processed normal by North Coast Photo dip and dunk with Clayton F76+ developer (similar to Kodak D76). Taken on a Chamonix 45H-1, Schneider Symmar APO 150mm with B+W orange filter.

    I'm thankful to Peter Figen of Los Angeles who performed the scan on his Howtek. The scan was done at 4000 ppi using the native aperture (6.35 microns) for that resolution. It’s 16 bit RGB directly into Gamma 2.2 Adobe RGB color space. Peter provided both non-Adjusted and adjusted TIFF files. Note the adjusted version was changed only to set the clipping points using Trident. I did not sharpen either of his files.
    And at what aperture did you set the lens?

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  6. #56

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Yes I did, and Pere, if you can't see clearly how the two images have differing tonality and contrast in different parts of the image in your "comparison" then you are blind. This is an obvious difference and one wonders why. Anyway, I have issues with the oversharpening on the Epson, as I have said before. But let's keep marching on! 6 pages already!

    These are shortcomings in your tonal edition skills.

    Do that exercise, align the two images in Photoshop in two layers and substract, you target a black result for total match, then place an adjustment layer on top with a curve expanding the subtraction, you will see where you misss the shot in the tonal matching. This is the way I was teached...

    Or on any doubt you may ask Alan, the wood trunks are totally matched even if pixel-peeping.


    Added: Anyway, if you want to know it for sure, use "histogram equalization" feature in photoshop with both images and you'll see that it delivers exact images, scientifically demonstrating that you can do exactly the same with each of both images.

    Try that, if images do match then it's your edition, not the images themselves.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 21-Jun-2020 at 04:24. Reason: Added

  7. #57

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    And at what aperture did you set the lens?

    Sandy

    Sandy, Alan have explained it: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557565


    An APO-Symmar 150 which is top glass, shot f/16 which is around the sweet performance peak, as modern 4x5" lenses are diffraction limited by f/22.


    Also Scheimflug was applied in this way: the trunks and the wall's top are sharp, while the wall's bottom is less sharp.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ...so perfect plane of focus takes the subject in one area or another, so OP had the opportunity to take totally sharp crops. Anyway you have x20 and x40 crops (on monitor) that tell it's a quite sound shot.


    The important thing is how the Epson requires a refined edition to go from this pixel-peeping:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557266

    To this pixel-peeping:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557267



    To end in a totally matching matching result at x10:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557508


    In fact the Epson (well focused) is resolving 55 lp/mm in its best axis while the drum at 4000dpi is around 65 to 70 lp/mm (all at extintion): We only see an slight image enhancing with a +40% rating, and IQ in the LF negative may usually be the limiting factor if being able to take 50lp/mm from the medium.


    It looks that all these years the Epsons have been severely underrated for LF. Now we have new smashing evidence.

  8. #58
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    These are shortcomings in your tonal edition skills.
    And yet it is seen in the comparisons you posted which is what I was talking about. Go ahead and redo them again if you want, it won't make a difference. More to the point, the ugly faux-resolution of an oversharpened Epson scan is plain to see, while a mild sharpening of the drum scan shown by Peter shows much smoother and more reasonable resolution results.

    If you feel it is "as good" then that is fine. It is not a "fact" it is merely your opinion. That's all that needs to be said. See you on page 25!
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  9. #59
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    I didn't want to start a fight only to add to the conversation. For my purposes, I don't print any more for the most part. I bought a V850 when I moved up to large format. I had been using a V600 for my 35mm and 120 shots. Since i haven't printed anything, it's hard to tell what final results would show and I suppose print size would have an effect. I am pleased that the V850 gives pretty good scans for posting on the web. Its adjustable holder with glass is better than the V600 holders that have neither. There's also a wet mount holder. But I doubt if I'll get one.

    The other thing to know if that for 8x10's, you have to place the negative on the platen glass which uses a second, less sharp lens for scanning than the primary lens used for the smaller formats:35mm, 120 and 4x5. So there's that to consider. Finally, if I was to really make a large print, I would use the services of someone like Peter Figen to provide the best drum scan I could get. Since I don't print myself, I would want to use a service that combines the scan and print process as it seems that's the best way to get the best final print results.

  10. #60
    (Shrek)
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    This is I believe the 3rd iteration of this argument/discussion since I've been reading here, and I'm coming away with the same impression I got from the previous 2: for a hobbyist who never prints over 1m, there is little to be gained in terms of sharpness in buying and maintaining a drum scanner. But for dense negs/positives like my Velvia 50 shots, the drum scanner is perhaps the only way to get a truly adequate scan. I've been photographing them with a dSLR, and since that wasn't a good solution I just stopped shooting chromes.

    I recently purchased a Microtek i900 flatbed hoping that this is an acceptable workaround, as I really don't want to go to the expense and learning curve for a drum scanner, nor do I want to spend CAD $1700 +tax for an Epson.

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