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Thread: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

  1. #31
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Absolutely. My aim here was only to show that the view that 'drum scans should never be additionally sharpened, 'cause it only magnifies the grain' is false. As a result, comparing an unsharpened drum scan to a highly sharpened Epson scan isn't a very good comparison. Each should be optimized individually, and the results will depend on the abilities of the person doing the optimizing. I used very simple methods in Photoshop to sharpen the drum scan. They could be made much more involved.
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  2. #32
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    The drum scan looks much better, both in contrast at the local level and resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Absolutely, no difference for x8 or x10 enlargements. Just a proficient scanning/edition required with the Epson. Those statemens saying that the Epson was good for x2 or x4 were totally wrong or in some cases a plain lie.
    And yet the tiny web version in Post #10 has obvious differences at a tiny web size. But hey, let's march on to Page 25!
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  3. #33

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The drum scan looks much better, both in contrast at the local level and resolution, And yet the tiny web version in Post #10 has obvious differences at a tiny web size.
    No...

    The drum scan has the gamma automaticly adjusted and the Epson scan not, adjust the curves before comparing, man...




    Now the Epson image looks obviously better, but edit the two images for the same tonality and you'll see exactly the same.

    Have we to go down to that level ?

  4. #34

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Absolutely. My aim here was only to show that the view that 'drum scans should never be additionally sharpened, 'cause it only magnifies the grain' is false.
    For sharp results Every digital image has to be sharpened for it's print size in at least two ways, at pixel level after resizing to destination print size, and second... for the intended viewing distance vs size.

    Beyond that, of course a 4000 drum scan may require an slight sharpening for a x20 print (the crop size you show), because a 4000dpi drum scan it resolves around 70lp/mm at 4000dpi and this is 70/20 = 3.5lp/mm on print, so under the standard graphic resolving power. This is plainly required from discretization itself alone.


    But if you are to print x8 then you depart from 70/8 = 8.75 lp/mm on print, but if printing from a 4000dpi drum scan at x8 probably you are sharpening more to adjust acutance to your taste than enhancing the image, anyway the benefit will be low because you depart from a mostly optimal image, while with the Epson you require a refined optimization.

  5. #35

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The drum scan looks much better, both in contrast at the local level and resolution.
    But hey, let's march on to Page 25!

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    it's pretty obvious that...
    Cheers Lachlan,

    Please ask Peter to optimize both the Epson and the Howtek crops in the same refined way side by side, and we'll compare at x8 and beyond. You'll get the same by x8 and very similar for x20, with the drum x20 grain slightly better detailed, but at that x20 the LF negative does not has good Image Quality anyway.

    Hey guys, lets do a refined side by side !!!


    If that side by side pixel peeping is not posted yet it's because the Epson is shinning...

    Ok, let's play some music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gOrg287Kbk


    Are we able to be constructive? Lets show side by side optimal editions at x8 x16 and x24.

  6. #36

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    So Pere, when are you going to show everyone that the low contrast detail resolution of the Epson can be matched to the Howtek? You've reached the end of your excuses highway.

    Show the evidence. Use the barn wall segment. And if you can't, accept you have made a serious error and move on.

  7. #37

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    So Pere, when are you going to show everyone that the low contrast detail resolution of the Epson can be matched to the Howtek? You've reached the end of your excuses highway.

    Show the evidence. Use the barn wall segment. And if you can't, accept you have made a serious error and move on.
    Me, I see the same in the post #2 pixel peeping, https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557267,

    Anyway at x10 there is no difference, beyond tonality/size have been adjusted a bit different:




    It's quite amazing the Epson is matching a drum at x10, we have to be pixel peeping at x20 to see if there is any difference. Isn't it?


    Please, take it with a humor dose: https://www.visionexpress.com/optici...anan-galleries

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Epson job is IMPRESSIVE !!!

    Such a cheap macine rivalling a drum, specially for LF...

  8. #38

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    No Pere, try again. Use the crop of the barn wall. That is the bit that will be far more obvious in terms of perceptual sharpness/ definition relative to noise/ granularity in a print. Otherwise you are trying to dissemble from visual reality.

  9. #39
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    It's very striking that no one has attempted to do anything with the section of image showing the planks - which along with the larger areas of smooth tonality is where most viewers will really see the differences in optical performance (signal: noise behaviour & its impact on sharp fine detail imaging in lower contrast areas) in an actual print, as opposed to the high contrast hard edged details on the ends of the pieces of wood. Suggests that most 'image analysis' on here is firmly stuck somewhere before 1952 and will result in prints that would be easy to pick out the drum scan from.
    You can examine the planks which are very rich by looking at the original edited result on my FLickr. You can download a 2mb 1980x1600 file to play with. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...7714124881023/

  10. #40

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    No Pere, try again. Use the crop of the barn wall. That is the bit that will be far more obvious in terms of perceptual sharpness/ definition relative to noise/ granularity in a print. Otherwise you are trying to dissemble from visual reality.
    You miss the shot again...

    Edit well both crops (that are 5mm high on the negative) and you'll get mostly the same at x40 (first image) and the same at x20 (second image):







    If not exactly the same this is because I did it in two clicks... tonality can be beter matched


    Now some homework for you: reduce to x10 and find a difference if you can !!!!!!


    Look: the Epson is IMPRESSIVE !!


    Matching the drum even at x10, no doubt.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Pere Casals; 20-Jun-2020 at 07:22. Reason: spelling

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