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Thread: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

  1. #101

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    Same thoughts here as well - thanks for expressing them so concisely and clearly.
    I also agreee totally. It is totally true that the Epson is way less capable than the Howtek, the Creos and the Scanmate. Simply see resolving power ratings in the 2019 side by side... no doubt !!!


    But now we have smashing evidence that for MF and LF the Epson result totally matches the High end results, simply because the Epson is mostly outresolving what the medium has.


    FACTS:



    Smashing evidence nº 1, totally equal for Portra 160, MF and up:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1479178



    Smashing evidence nº 2, totally equal 4x5", TMX, top notch taking lens:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557944



    Smashing evidence nº 3, same BW tonality if you want:


    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557926




    Smashing evidence nº 4, World Class negafix color inversions for color negative film, the very best:

    min 22:00 >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9d8BukUgzI&t=1756s



    Smashing evidence nº 5, Epson requires a proficient user for Pro results, to focus and to edit:

    To go from here:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557266


    To here:

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557267

    Users like Pali and Alan are able, some I won't mention are known to not being able.



    Smashing evidence nº 6, total capability for Velvia dense slides when using multi-exposure:

    Comming soon, I'll wait your bones get recoverd from the beating you took from this side by side. Prepare your body for the next round...

    ...because in the same way you severely underrated the Epson capability for LF you are not aware of the performance the Epson delivers with very dense Velvia. This will be your next surprise.



    Smashing evidence nº 7, best buy:

    > Cheap, warranty, official service for the long term, last Operative System support, works with modern computers, easy to install, no breakdowns issues compared with ancient hardware.

    > Faster compared to high end scanners, DSLR may be faster but you have to stitch for MF and up and don't have iSRD and color inversions are time consuming.

    > Infrared dust/scratch detection/correction, ME able.

    > (V8xx) LED illumination that is service free, calibration free, no pre-heat delays, ANR holders that ensure total flatness and height-focus adjustment for totally Pro results.



    ________

    These are smashing evidences you won't be able to discredit, but it will good you try it because we have 2500 views right now in the thread and the more the debate is extended the more the truth will be known by people having to make a decision. Today scanning is important for many people, and informing them well is good for the community. No hype, facts.

  2. #102
    Unwitting Thread Killer Ari's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #103

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Pere, you are quite clearly behaving as you are because you are afraid of being seen to not be as smart or as experienced as you think you are.

    If you were less fearful of being wrong about the Epson (and at least part of this fear seems to be financially driven), you'd know that Resolving Power is pretty irrelevant when the central MTF50 of a 4x5 imaging system using most normal lenses at f22 on T-max 100 is equivalent to a hair over 1200ppi. You'd know that the MTF50 of an average, carefully focused V7xx or V8xx Epson is about 660ppi, at which point it becomes rather obvious that any high end scanner (which were designed from the start with high optical MTF performance as a priority), even if running at less than 2400ppi, is going to firmly outperform the Epson because the Epson can only resolve a percentage of the film's recorded MTF50, but a high end scanner may well be able to resolve all or almost all of the recorded MTF50. None of this is new or controversial.

    I'll let Pali have the final word here as it's painfully apparent you are avoiding his comments
    Quote Originally Posted by Pali K View Post
    unfortunately Pere, you’re not experienced enough with the variety of scanners being discussed to convince me on anything differently. Keyboard courage, google search, and referencing others work with your absolute opinions don’t make you an authority

  4. #104

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    Pere, you are quite clearly behaving as you are because you are afraid of being seen to not be as smart or as experienced as you think you are.

    If you were less fearful of being wrong about the Epson (and at least part of this fear seems to be financially driven), you'd know that Resolving Power is pretty irrelevant when the central MTF50 of a 4x5 imaging system using most normal lenses at f22 on T-max 100 is equivalent to a hair over 1200ppi. You'd know that the MTF50 of an average, carefully focused V7xx or V8xx Epson is about 660ppi, at which point it becomes rather obvious that any high end scanner (which were designed from the start with high optical MTF performance as a priority), even if running at less than 2400ppi, is going to firmly outperform the Epson because the Epson can only resolve a percentage of the film's recorded MTF50, but a high end scanner may well be able to resolve all or almost all of the recorded MTF50. None of this is new or controversial.

    Lachlan Young, Ari Tapiero: what you both don't understand from next side by side comparison ?

    Have you eyes in the face ? What kind of photographers are you?

    Where is that "crap", "shit", "bad at x2" ?

    Boys, this is totally matching even for a x12 print... Or haven't you eyes in the face ? What a fun... LOL




    Click image for larger version. 

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    Now what you don't understand from this "that impossible" Tonality matching ?

    Original: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1557321

    Edited:


  5. #105
    (Shrek)
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    That's all that needs to be said. See you on page 25!
    I'm predicting we'll hit 25 by next Monday. Somebody check my math?

  6. #106

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Jody_S View Post
    I'm predicting we'll hit 25 by next Monday. Somebody check my math?

    Please let me ask about post 104...

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1558004

    Where is the optical performance or the tonality difference?

    Are you able to tell it?

  7. #107

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by Jody_S View Post
    I'm predicting we'll hit 25 by next Monday. Somebody check my math?
    Unfortunately it'll carry on for exactly as long as the mods are prepared to tolerate a sealion horking up nonsense.

  8. #108

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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    I'll let Pali have the final word here as it's painfully apparent you are avoiding his comments
    He commented this yet:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pali K View Post
    You're right Pere. I am sure it could be improved and that is why I am posting RAW files so hopefully others can do some post-edit conclusions as well later. I am scanning through and reviewing the images and though this area of the image shows some interesting differences that are worth sharing.

    What is most interesting is that in real life, DPI resolving power may not be adding a whole lot if the image itself doesn't have the resolution to begin with. It will be nice to see how slides look side by side and I expect to see bigger differences there.

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1479178


    Lachlan, this has been debated and conclusions are clear... While a Creo or a 11000 drum doubles the resolving power of an Epson this makes no difference in real life in the Portra 160 case for example, even for MF.

    See this, please: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1478941


    The Creo top dpi scan outresolves (area count) the negative by an x5 factor. For this reason the Epson equals the Creo, both are able to take all what the negative has. A Ferrari an a VW Beatle perform equal in a traffic jam. The Creo is better, result is the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    Unfortunately it'll carry on for exactly as long as the mods are prepared to tolerate a sealion horking up nonsense.
    You are the sealioner and the troll, you have a total side by side evidence in front of your nose and you negate it. This is funny because you are discrediting yourself, anyone looking at the nice Epson-Howtek side by side made by Alan will now that you are negating the facts.

    I'm only defending the truth to avoid you an other having commercial interests misslead more people, the evidence is in front of your nose and it's undeniable.

  9. #109
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Here is another comparison showing focus based on height adjustments of the Epson V850 Pro 4x5 film holder. No sharpening was applied. This is a different type film; Tmax 400 instead of the previous Tmax 100. While you can't see the difference looking at the whole picture, the sharpness is very obvious when zoomed in. The scanner comes with two holders for each format. So you have to check the correct height for each one. The two 4x5's were actually different. One was best focused at Middle of 5. The other was best focused at the 4th of 5, second from bottom which Epson says is the default setpoint.


    Height adjustment comparison
    by Alan Klein, on Flickr

    Height adjustment comparison full photo by Alan Klein, on Flickr

  10. #110
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Howtek 8000 Drum vs. Epson V850 flatbed scanners

    Here's the adjustment instruction for the Epson V850 Pro film holders. There's a full range of 2mm in .5 stops although you can set the slider between the stops. You really can't tell the focus difference though and would be better off using the stops so they don't slide accidentally. You could tape them into position. While the picture shows 6 sliders for the 35mm holder, the 4x5 has 4 sliders; one at each corner which must be set at the same setting so the holder is level.


    V850 Film Holder height adjustment
    by Alan Klein, on Flickr

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