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Thread: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

  1. #71

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Quote Originally Posted by carbo73 View Post
    Well, after an autumn without much wet plates, I've started winter and 2022 with a lot of trials and it's problems. Although now my silver baths seem quite correct, I've been ending my supply of collodion and sandarac varnish, so I decided to (partially) made them, following Quinn Jacobson's book and recipes. It not has started well. I bought new varnish but also mixed another batch. Both dissolved my images (it's an horrible thing to watch), but the problem seems to be diminishing adding some water. In fact much more than I presumed, as manuals say add only a few drops (too much water in the varnish has it's own problems!).

    And then yesterday I did my first 500 ml of Quinn's Kick Clear collodion. As the name implies, it's ripe very fast (2 hours, Quinn says) but I let it rest 24h just in case. Well, fist plates are quite a mess, with a lot of wave or spaguetti-like veil. I don't know if this is still unripe collodion or another problem, but I partially solved it letting the plate stay in the silver bath not 3 minutes but almost 5. In fact, this pattern of veil is already visible in the undeveloped plate!

    Any ideas? And, as I love getting into problems, I will try make negatives, with iodine redevelopment! First trials quite messy (but I had not all the chemistry)...

    Attachment 223697Attachment 223698Attachment 223699Attachment 223700
    Searching for information, now it seems that could be related to water in the collodion or too short time in the silver bath (or maybe both?), and Quinn Jacobson quotes a XIX C. book telling to put a bit of baking soda in the collodion to get rid of the water in it. Maybe I could try this, with a small batch of my new collodion...

  2. #72

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    well, some minimal progress made, here. I've done a little trial with the baking soda: 4 grams of baking soda into 100 ml of my salted collodion, mixed for about 30-40 minutes. Then decanted and filtered. The white stripes/patches are less evident, but still present. Allowing for 5 minutes in the silver bath also helps. Is the water in the collodion the problem, or I'm following the wrong culprit?

    In the image, from down to up: a) my normal new Quick Clear collodion, sensitized for about 3 minutes. b) my "baking soda treated" Quick Clear collodion, sensitized 3 minutes, c) the same as "b" but sensitized for 5 minutes or even more.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PD:the dark marks are my pathetic attemps at cleaning the veil with a cotton ball.

  3. #73

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Sounds like your base collodion is old. It should not be that fragile. Varnish dissolving it and a cotton ball wiping it all off are signs.
    Leave it in the silver bath until when you remove the plate, there are no beading or runs of the liquid. You want it a smooth sheet of silver bath running off the plate. How many plates did you run through the bath? these signs are of a silver bath saturated with solvents from working with it too long. But that means 50 or more plates, without sunning. How is it's silver percentage, with a hygrometer? It's likely the silver bath contaminated (baking soda getting into it from the plates) or too week base collodion.

    Don't add anything (too late) to your collodion. You're jumping to solutions too fast. I've never heard of anyone adding baking soda to the collodion. Don't.

  4. #74

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Well, I have not problems at all with the images themselves with my old collodion, nor the negative collodion bought last month. Just this foggy mess with my own made collodion, just 5 days old, now. And the silver bath was sunned (and filtered) for 24 hours just prior to those images. The problem, in fact, happened before % after sunning, but ONLY with my own made salted collodion. And the base collodion, bottled, was bought last november or so in a specialist chemistry shop. The gravity is arround 1055, a bit low, I know, but should work even in 1040, they say. And pH it's arround 3-3.5, although I'm having problems reading my pH strips.

    Waiting up to 5 minutes with the plate in the silver bath helps reducing the problem, but then 5 minutes is way above the more usual 3 minutes and if I wait longer there would be more problems, I presume (contamination of the silver bath, less sensitivity in the plate...).

    I think that is some mistake I did in the mixing, probably I added too much water, as it was the first time and had problems dissolving the cadmium bromide. In fact, the cadmium bromide was already "caked" in it's original bottle, so maybe it was damp already?

    About the baking soda, Quinn Jabobson says so, at least citing XIX Century manuals, N. B. Burgess in particular (he says "saleratus", wich is baking soda). Here it is, in minute 21:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0e...index=8&t=705s

    In fact, the baking soda did not dissolve at all in the collodion, as Burgess says, and in part remedied some of the problem.

    I even remember having this kind of problem with a salted collodion I bought from a well known source. I used it only a few times as it gave me problems, only that bottle too. Maybe too much water or other problems in the mixing?

  5. #75

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Quote Originally Posted by carbo73 View Post
    Well, I have not problems at all with the images themselves with my old collodion, nor the negative collodion bought last month. Just this foggy mess with my own made collodion, just 5 days old, now. And the silver bath was sunned (and filtered) for 24 hours just prior to those images. The problem, in fact, happened before % after sunning, but ONLY with my own made salted collodion. And the base collodion, bottled, was bought last november or so in a specialist chemistry shop. The gravity is arround 1055, a bit low, I know, but should work even in 1040, they say. And pH it's arround 3-3.5, although I'm having problems reading my pH strips.

    Waiting up to 5 minutes with the plate in the silver bath helps reducing the problem, but then 5 minutes is way above the more usual 3 minutes and if I wait longer there would be more problems, I presume (contamination of the silver bath, less sensitivity in the plate...).

    I think that is some mistake I did in the mixing, probably I added too much water, as it was the first time and had problems dissolving the cadmium bromide. In fact, the cadmium bromide was already "caked" in it's original bottle, so maybe it was damp already?

    About the baking soda, Quinn Jabobson says so, at least citing XIX Century manuals, N. B. Burgess in particular (he says "saleratus", wich is baking soda). Here it is, in minute 21:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0e...index=8&t=705s

    In fact, the baking soda did not dissolve at all in the collodion, as Burgess says, and in part remedied some of the problem.

    I even remember having this kind of problem with a salted collodion I bought from a well known source. I used it only a few times as it gave me problems, only that bottle too. Maybe too much water or other problems in the mixing?
    1) If you are seeing problems ONLY with one recipe of collodion (your home made, Quinn's formula) then there are very few possible reasons you are getting a bad result: something is incorrect in your collodion chemistry (wrong type of collodion purchased: be sure its made for photography purposes, too much water used to dissolve the salts: do NOT use more than the recipe calls for. If you have difficulty dissolving the cadmium, just warm the mixing vessel in a dish of warm water. It can take ten minutes to dissolve it, so be patient - don't add more water), Or: sometimes brand new collodion is more sensitive to the developer and you may need to add more acetic acid to it, to avoid developing the unexposed silver. It looks to me like you are developing out the unexposed silver.

    2) DON'T add things like baking soda to your collodion. While it may have been done 150 years ago, the purity of chemistry back then wasn't as good as what we have now, and adding unconventional chemicals to collodion might not have the desired effect.

    3) I assume when you say "The gravity is arround 1055, a bit low, I know, but should work even in 1040, they say." you are talking about the silver bath, NOT the collodion? There's no reason to measure the specific gravity and pH of collodion. The silver content of the bath is very important if you want to get consistent results, so its best to get the silver volume to as close as ideal as possible. 1.073 is considered pretty much the sweet spot, so add more silver nitrate to achieve this.

    Wet plate collodion chemistry is fussy and somewhat unpredictable. What worked one day may suddenly behave badly the next day. You need to be able to diagnose problems when they happen and know how to remedy them. I strongly suggest you resist the urge to "experiment" with unorthodox materials and methods, at least until you have learned how to get consistent results using tried and true methods. Quinn's book outlines solid technical methods for the processes and if you follow them to the letter, you will get reliable results.
    More often than not, (as long as your silver bath is properly cared for and has a consistent silver content) when you get veiled plates with silver depositing in the unexposed areas, then the developer is either too strong for the collodion you're using (and brand new collodion is almost always more responsive to the developer!) or there isn't enough acetic acid in it. It is not unusual to have to fine tune the acid content of the developer in order to make it work well with each different collodion, and with a collodion that's mixed new. Two weeks from now (assuming its mixed correctly) your collodion might work just fine with the developer you're using right now. The chemistry is changing all the time, and you need to know what to do when something doesn't work the way you think it should.

    So first things first, I suggest you experiment with adding more acid to the developer (or dilute it with water) and see what you get. To find out for sure if the developer is acting too strong with the new collodion, pour and sensitize a plate as normal, but DO NOT expose it to white light. Go straight to the developer, and develop the plate for as long as you've been doing, then wash and fix it. If there is developed out silver on the plate, then add more acid to the developer and try again. Also, avoid letting the developer stay on the plate longer than 15 seconds. 12 seconds is probably better.

  6. #76

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Many thanks for your long reply , Paul.

    1) yes, by now this development problems are only experienced in my own (first) salted collodion. I'm quite sure I used too much water, beginner's mistake!The collodion is USP, bought from an usual source for photography chemistry in Barcelona. And what you say about developing of unexposed silver could be a possibility, but I can see wavy patterns in the plate as I take it from the sensitizing bath, so the problem probably is unrelated, at least in it's root, to the developer. Maybe a diluted developer would help in mitigate it, anyway.

    2) well, that can't be undone, so maybe I will try some new batch (first I have to buy more plain collodion, I exhausted my home supply, 240 ml).

    3) yes I was talking about pH and gravity of the silver bath. I'm conscient the gravity is low, and probably it's too acidic, but my pH strips don't give me coherent results, I probably don't use them properly.

    I'm not quite happy at all at my first trial to make myself all the wet plate chemistry, so just to keep working, I've ordered some more premixed collodion. But will try again when I have the chemicals. I've mixed developer the past year without much problems, and fixer too (plus silver bath). Sandarac varnish is quite messy to do, but seems to work. So what only remains is the salted collodion.

    Thanks again for the information and help, Paul.

  7. #77

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Quote Originally Posted by carbo73 View Post
    Many thanks for your long reply , Paul.

    1) yes, by now this development problems are only experienced in my own (first) salted collodion. I'm quite sure I used too much water, beginner's mistake!The collodion is USP, bought from an usual source for photography chemistry in Barcelona. And what you say about developing of unexposed silver could be a possibility, but I can see wavy patterns in the plate as I take it from the sensitizing bath, so the problem probably is unrelated, at least in it's root, to the developer. Maybe a diluted developer would help in mitigate it, anyway.

    2) well, that can't be undone, so maybe I will try some new batch (first I have to buy more plain collodion, I exhausted my home supply, 240 ml).

    3) yes I was talking about pH and gravity of the silver bath. I'm conscient the gravity is low, and probably it's too acidic, but my pH strips don't give me coherent results, I probably don't use them properly.

    I'm not quite happy at all at my first trial to make myself all the wet plate chemistry, so just to keep working, I've ordered some more premixed collodion. But will try again when I have the chemicals. I've mixed developer the past year without much problems, and fixer too (plus silver bath). Sandarac varnish is quite messy to do, but seems to work. So what only remains is the salted collodion.

    Thanks again for the information and help, Paul.
    Quote Originally Posted by carbo73 View Post
    Many thanks for your long reply , Paul.

    1) yes, by now this development problems are only experienced in my own (first) salted collodion. I'm quite sure I used too much water, beginner's mistake!The collodion is USP, bought from an usual source for photography chemistry in Barcelona. And what you say about developing of unexposed silver could be a possibility, but I can see wavy patterns in the plate as I take it from the sensitizing bath, so the problem probably is unrelated, at least in it's root, to the developer. Maybe a diluted developer would help in mitigate it, anyway.

    2) well, that can't be undone, so maybe I will try some new batch (first I have to buy more plain collodion, I exhausted my home supply, 240 ml).

    3) yes I was talking about pH and gravity of the silver bath. I'm conscient the gravity is low, and probably it's too acidic, but my pH strips don't give me coherent results, I probably don't use them properly.

    I'm not quite happy at all at my first trial to make myself all the wet plate chemistry, so just to keep working, I've ordered some more premixed collodion. But will try again when I have the chemicals. I've mixed developer the past year without much problems, and fixer too (plus silver bath). Sandarac varnish is quite messy to do, but seems to work. So what only remains is the salted collodion.

    Thanks again for the information and help, Paul.
    Its very unlikely that excessive water in the collodion is THE problem here, its just one of them. How much more water DID you add? Certainly if your plate is coming out of the silver bath with "wavy lines" on it, the collodion has problems, but I really think you should do a "blind plate" test (develop a plate that has not been exposed to white light) to find out if the developer is contributing to the problem also. This test is extremely valuable as a diagnostic tool, as it either confirms or eliminates the possibility of an overactive developer making unexposed silver develop out.

    Question: I'm gleaning that you made up the silver bath yourself - so what I wonder is: did you add nitric acid to adjust its pH when you made it? A newly concocted silver bath will have a very reasonable pH from the moment its mixed, and rarely (if ever) is it necessary to add acid to adjust the pH. I know that Quinn talks a bit about pH of the bath, but mostly he is talking about specific pH values needed to "tune" the bath for specific purposes, like making negatives suitable for salt printing. I would point out that John Coffer - one of the most experienced practitioners of the craft - states that he never checks the pH of his silver bath, and has been using the same baths for many years without once checking its pH. As far as I'm concerned, if Coffer thinks this is a reasonable approach to the matter, then its good enough for me.
    That said, I have checked the pH of my baths on occasion and not once have I found the acidity to stray from a very reasonable value, and so I have stopped testing its pH. I think pH is something you don't need to worry about, unless you see clear signs that point to this factor (Quinn talks in the book about the tell tale signs of incorrect pH)

    Also, is there a reason why you have not adjusted the specific gravity (amount of AgNO3) in your bath to a more ideal value? If you've found that you're having to leave a plate in the bath for nearly twice the standard time to get good results, then this may be because the bath is getting too close to the point where there's not a healthy amount of silver in the bath. Bringing the value closer to 1.073 may help resolve some of the issues you're seeing.

    Quinn has laid out a very simple process for mixing your own chemistry in his book. If you follow those instructions precisely, you will get reliable, consistent results every time. He's really made as foolproof a strategy as you can, so you'll have an easier time of it if you stick to the techniques as outlined. The collodion recipe he lists for making positives (tintypes, ambrotypes) is very simple and will deliver good results when paired with a balanced bath and the developer recipe he has matched it with. It does seem odd to me that your Sandarac is dissolving your images, especially if its dissolving your recent, home made collodion. Sandarac usually only dissolves collodion that is well beyond its optimal shelf life.

    One last thing: it is very good advice in Quinn's book to mix up the salted solvents separately from the collodion, and keep it as a 2 part mix, which you only mix together when you need fresh collodion. I'm not sure what page this is on, but its described in detail in the chapter about making positive collodion. If you adopt this approach, you will never have to deal with salted collodion that has aged far beyond its most usable state.

  8. #78

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Well, when I mixed the collodion I tried to follow Quinn's book instructions to the point. But with the water maybe I added 2-3 ml more to disolve the cadmium bromide. First time doing it, and also quite scared from this stuf for all I've read about it (trying to be completely safe, doing the mix in the outside, well ventiladed, with respirator and nitrile gloves, of course). So I was anoyed that it was hard to disolve in the first 2 or 3 ml of water, and added a bit more. In the end probably it was about 5, 6 at most ml of water, distiled, of course. Maybe the problem is other, I cleaned the glassware, but maybe I should had done more. I will try the blind plate, as you say.

    About the silver baths (I have two, "A" and "B"), they are in origin bought from wet plate suppliers, but by now I've added so much water and silver nitrate that probably a great deal of them is made by me. But with other's collodion now work quite fine (I had problems this summer, with a myriad of tiny black pinholes, but a lot of sun remedied this). I have to increase gravity to 1073, as you say, just had still no time as I was concentrated on trying other approaches to the problem. As you say, maybe a bath with more silver will help. I do my wet plates at my mother's home (in the room where my late father painted), not at my home, as I have no space and two children (not the kind of stuff they may try to touch). I think the pH is more or less correct, and I have never added acid to it (I only have glacial acetic acid anyway).

    About the sandarac, I had problems with one bought from a supplier, and then I tried to mix it myself, and the same problems, mostly with old collodion (but my old sandarac had no problem at all with the same collodion just a day before! and was from the same supplier!). Quinn says than in Europe there are more problems with the sandarac because sometimes the alcohol is stronger that it should be. Anyway I added some water to it and now it's safe, at least for the new collodion.

    As you say, the advice on Quinn's book about how to mix collodion seems very good advice, specially to get rid of the dangers of half used ether. I used all of it, mixing a part with the rest of the elements to made this salted collodion, and the rest just with salts and ethanol to stabilize it. There's a cadmium-free collodion that also uses 50%-50% ether and alcohol so I will try it with part of my supply (will feel safer mixing it, even if it has not the advantages of the cadmium salts).

  9. #79

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Some news, good news, about my own collodion. Today I did some more tintypes and worked much better; very well in fact.

    First I worked on the silver bath to bring up the gravity from the low c.1055 that I have before to a much more adequate c.1071 or 72. Then I made a "blind plate", just sensitized for 3-4 minutes and direct to the developer. I looks almost completely black. In fact, as I saw it emerging from the silver bath I was much happier, because it had none of the wirly patterns and artifacts that previous plates showed, it was smooth.

    Then I did some fast shots at the garden, with diminishing afternoon light. The collodion worked without major flaws this time... in 2 of the 3. The third one was a complete disaster but I know one of the culprits here (and maybe of the last days): the developer. I've been using this last weeks a developer with added silver nitrate & nitric acid (just because it was my fullest bottle). But today I tried another, just the bottom of a tried one (of the same manufacturer). Both developers have worked quite well with my older (bought) collodion. But it seems there's one that does not like at all my collodion.

    I'm not sure what helped most here, the better silver bath, the change in developer, my addition (and then filtered) of baking soda... or that my collodion simply needed a bit of time to settle. In any case the plates now look good after sensitizing, and just after normal time, about 3 minutes. I hope this collodion continues to give good results, as I want to try even more things here: collodion negatives (and salt & albumen prints made with them), a revamped field dark box for 5x7 plates....

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #80

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    Re: Wet Plate Collodion questions answered here.

    Quote Originally Posted by carbo73 View Post
    Some news, good news, about my own collodion. Today I did some more tintypes and worked much better; very well in fact.
    Much better! Congratulations. Please show us how you're getting on as you make more plates. You're on the right track!

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