An imagined LED enlarger light source for 4x5 -- NEW INFO FOR TECHNICIANS

[Ulophot]

For anyone with the appropriate knowledge and skills who is following this thread with an eye toward putting something together or experimenting for my original B&W head proposal:

I posted a link to this thread over at Photrio the other day and received some responses, including this link to an old thread:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...phouse.173834/

The OP and some SPs (subsequent posters) offer quite a bit of useful info, some of which might need updating with today's products. LED Supply is still in business and has heat sinks designed for their LEDs.

In case you didn't read the OP, I am not trying to build anything; way out of my league. I'm trying to incite others to do so, to eventually get some new product more widely available at a price more of us can justify/afford, though I'm told $400 is impossibly low for actual manufacture. Maybe a new, fairly straightforward but customizable (please see OP) DIY design that those of us without shop and electronics skills could get a friend to build for us.

While I'm mentioning it, has anyone given though to my proposed upper module? This is just a piece that connects the light unit, probably rectangular, maybe 5x6" or so, to the specific enlarger model, such as Omega D series, Durst, LPL. Would 3D printing be the way to go? Could someone design a program for the piece and sell copies, the buyers then taking it to some local 3D printer? I don't know anything about it (obviously).

Just continuing to poke around and see who has better ideas than I.

[MartinP]

While I'm mentioning it, has anyone given though to my proposed upper module? This is just a piece that connects the light unit, probably rectangular, maybe 5x6" or so, to the specific enlarger model, such as Omega D series, Durst, LPL. Would 3D printing be the way to go? Could someone design a program for the piece and sell copies, the buyers then taking it to some local 3D printer? I don't know anything about it (obviously).

It obviously depends on the requirements of each enlarger, but there are high-density foamboards available here (art suppliers in NL) that are probably also available in USA. I've used the two thicknesses of the 5mm version glued together, to make robust 4x5 and 8x10 pinhole cameras. One box is much like another so a simple rectangular adapter, assuming minimal heat to contend with, could easily be made. For a round adapter, foamboard quarter-circles glued on top of each with staggered joints could enable a simple and fast prototype to be produced. 3D printing is expensive and relatively slow unless you have your own large, high-quality printer system (and software knowledge) available.

[Tin Can]

My issue with this thread is setting cost and price goals which will scare off any entrepreneur

Many issues producing and selling anything

Let's start with liability

Hi, folks. I just spoke with someone at SuperBright LEDs, who responded to my long email, including watching the video at aspenimages on building that fancy, allegedly DIY model. In case you missed my earlier post:

Our cold light sources are not going to last forever. My hypothesis is that a plain vanilla, white LED (i.e., non-VC) enlarger source should be inexpensive to make, and that it could either fit the round Beseler or Omega D-series collars or, perhaps better, be made as a rectangle. If made in two parts in the latter configuration, the bottom could be the light source, the top could be one of several modules made to connect the bottom to various 4x5 enlarger models.

Here's where the technical part comes in, regarding feasibility, at least as far as my poor understanding allows: SB's 3000K strip lights come spaced about 2/3" apart, in 3-LED segments, 18 LEDs per foot, sold in 5-meter lengths, if I read the specs chart correctly. Each foot produces 115 or 220 lumens -- I can't understand how they are figuring this between 18 or 36 "density." The strip is less than 1/3" wide, so even at two strips per inch, just 9 strips, i.e., 4.5 feet, would fit a 4.5 x 6" enclosure, so three heads could be made from either $30 or $50 worth of strip lights, plus one of their $20 transformers (12V to 120AC) for each. Would this lumen output be any where near comparable to the output of a cold light head? That's really the potential deal-breaker as I see it, unless for some reason they would not go on and off pretty much instantaneously.

How the enclosure might be constructed, I must also leave to those who do such things. It just doesn't seem as if it would be a terrible challenge, since heat is not a major factor.

Okay, full disclaimer: I work for a huge IT company now, because I couldn't run my own. I'm the world's worst businessman, full stop.

That said, my guess is that, provided the lights are sufficient, someone with know-how and a shop could, after planning, prototype, and set-up, make 20 of these in at least one configuration, maybe three hours a piece, for a cost of maybe $90 (~$40 for the light and transformer, $30? for plywood or 3-D printing material, $20 for white plexi, additional hardware, paint, and other materials) and sell them for $250 a piece for a gross profit of $3400, about $50 an hour. Heck, a good one would be a good long-term investment at $300. The fellow at Modern Enlarger was selling his for $400, but he stopped long ago.

Can someone qualified chime in on the light output or other considerations? Do we have any retired builders with experience in this sort of thing?

[Ulophot]

Tin, I have done my best since beginning the thread to disclaim any knowledge of business or manufacturing. Liability, of course, though I don't know the ins and outs. In simple: there must be some price point fairly significantly below the Heiland super model at which my "plain vanilla" idea could be realized with proper design and materials, etc.

[denverjims]

Hope I’m not too late to the party but..
It sounds like this should be straight forward but it is not. A fellow ( modern enlarger led heads ) was trying to make a go of something similar to what you described but wasn’t able to get enough business to make a go of it and had to shut down. Too bad as it was a quality product.
Alan Ross designed a LED head Besler compatible and licensed it to them and they stopped making them for the same reasons. Alan showed me his designs and builds and the were good as well.
A real market for an inexpensive unit may not exist. Heiland is only able to make it due to the profit that they make on each unit.

Different subject: One has to be careful of the LEDs one chooses. I built a D5 compatible head along the lines you described, fairly inexpensively, but the SuperBright equivalents were lacking in the short end of the spectrum. Could get up to CG 2 1/2 with Multigrade filters but had to resort to Rosco filters and long exposure times to get to CG 4+. https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=Led+lighthead

All Bright LEDs not equal. You really need to look at the spectral curves to decide. These are bright because they put out a lot in the area we see best- green. Not necessarily in the shorter end were it doesn’t add to the apparent brightness.
Best, Jim

[Ulophot]

Jim, thank you for chiming in, and for the spectral caveat, which is very important. I don't think you're too late; I think the party has yet to begin; I am only trying to get it started.

I had been told of Alan Ross's creation and am aware that he uses it actively now. I didn't know about the Beseler connection; Interesting. I had contacted Modern Enlarger Light a few times, initially getting a "future possible" response but nothing since. I recognize now that the economics of such an enterprise creates obstacles, but I remain optimistic that ingenuity and craftsmanship may find a way to fill this need, and I maintain that the potential market for relatively small-scale production on the level of at least several thousand units exists at some reasonable price-point.

I remain at the mercy of those who could create such an alternative. When I see the camera creations and other constructions being made by experts (did you know that you can buy a kit for a dial cell phone? (https://interestingengineering.com/s...ry-dial-system) -- I LOVE it! -- I see reason for my optimism. I have sent my suggestion out hither and yon; perhaps it will eventually bear fruit.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know why someone would cobble together something specifically for sake of a Beseler chassis, which is inherently restrictive. But Alan did that with an 8X10 cold light conversion head too, long ago. I happen to have a phD in Jerryrigging, right from the University of Hard Knocks, and it's entirely possible in this day and age to put together something affordable and seriously functional without resorting to foamboard and duct tape ala Disposable Enlarger Accessories Incorporated. A good starting point would be learning to network with a friendly machinist or CNC operator with similar interests himself.

[denverjims]

Drew,
I agree those would be helpful. But my D5 compatible head, which I built using much of the designs that Alan shared with me (link in my previous post), I used only wood and Masonite (along with the electrical components). It worked quite well for years.

IMHO, one does not need a machine shop if you are doing a build for yourself. If you meant talking about building to sell, however, you definitely would.
Best, Jim

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I built things like crystal radios and cattle prods when I was a little kid in 4H, and later even a metal detector which worked, but in reverse, by beeping all the time and going quiet only when it was above metal. Lots of fun things. Neighbors work on speedboats and racing cars and classic motorcycles year after year. One of them caught their garage on fire and instantly destroyed twenty years of fussing with their dream boat. But I enjoyed restoring enlargers and designing personal darkroom gear instead, at least in what remained of my spare time. If I were younger, it would be fun to study material science and learn new fabrication methods. And ironically, what has hamstrung a revival in American manufacturing is the sheer scarcity of qualified machinists. Whereas most of our former manufacturing states could now fit all their own machinists into a single large lunch room, in China they could fill a sports coliseum. But even having on hand a basic drill press, router table, guided saw, etc, allows one to do quite a few things photography-related.