Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 32

Thread: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

  1. #11

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    279

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    You make some very good points Oren. We have little insight into what manufacturers are using in their emulsions today vs. what was used in the past. That alone is a major point of consideration. In the age of Wilhelm Institute claiming 400+ years of archival permanence of inkjet prints, us old analog guys need to at least be versed on these matters when customers or collectors ask about our silver prints.

    After printing 100 sheets of the new Ilford 5th gen Multigrade RC emulsion, I really like the aesthetic/tonal values as compared to my exact prints on their classic fiber paper. This is what has surfaced all these issues for me. In effect, I want to do everything I can to maximize the life of these new RC prints and have credible information to share with my customers.

    This has been really helpful and I look forward to any more thoughts and input from the group here.

    -Larry


    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    Larry, keep in mind that we don't really know what to say about the permanence of current FB papers either. AFAIK there is no information available to the public about the characteristics of the paper base used by the remaining manufacturers of silver-gelatin paper. We cannot assume that it is the same as paper base from decades ago, to which people refer in arguing that FB papers have been shown to have great longevity. We do know that current FB papers are generally loaded with brighteners (RC papers too!), which will deteriorate over time. That won't affect the physical integrity of the base, but it will affect the appearance of the print, especially if your printing habits are tuned precisely to the perceived brilliance of the paper as it comes out of the box.

    In my view it's not appropriate to make sweeping claims about very-long-term permanence of any silver prints. If one is selling prints, best to acknowledge the uncertainties and also include information about the role of storage and display conditions in maximizing the life of prints.

    If one is determined to sell photographic works on paper that have the maximum possible permanence, the most robust medium is probably Pt/Pd prints made on rag-based papers.

    I prefer silver prints myself, actually RC for most of my work. So I do the best I can, within reason - I selenium-tone all of my keepers and store them in acid-free boxes under reasonable environmental conditions. But I don't have a climate-controlled vault, and I'm under no illusion that I am making prints that are somehow guaranteed to last many tens or hundreds of years. I would never be comfortable claiming such.

  2. #12
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    7,291

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    Larry - just wanted to add that it's great that you're doing what you can to learn about this so that you can provide the most reliable information to your customers. That should go without saying, but in reality many print sellers don't.

    Also, FWIW, one of the reasons Mark McCormick-Goodhart started Aardenburg is that he has some differences of opinion with Wilhelm about testing methodology and about the sorts of claims that are appropriate to make about longevity.

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    12,717

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    The only things proved archival are cave paintings.

    One can assume with modern techniques but you have no ability to control how the prints will be handled or displayed after sell them.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    279

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    Bob, while all of those things are true, the issue that I am trying to raise in this thread is about providing credible and unbiased information to buyers of silver gelatin prints, whether they be RC or Fiber based.

    In a competitive market where digital photographers can press the magic button on their computer and whip out inkjet prints that have sources like Wilhelm Institute saying that injket prints have an archival rating of about 400 years, the topic needs to be discussed and addressed amoungst practitioners that market and sell their prints.

    These same types of issue are a part of just about any type of business mode when good are being soldl. There is always competition or a faster way to do something and the sales people need ot be armed with quality information to help educate and inform customers. My goal is to dig out any information that is available from credible third party testers on the permanance of analog silver gelatin prints. After I tackles this, I need to do the same for silver chloride as well.

    As previously noted in the above comments and replies, this issue surfaced for me when I started printing on the new 5th generation Ilford Multigrade RC Deluxe paper and I liked my prints better on this paper than on the classic fiber paper. The holy grail would be to understand how the new Ilford RC emulsion performs from an archival perspective when properly processed, toned, and maybe even treated with Sistan.

    I am looking forward to additonal sources or tips from the group here so we can hopefully know a little bit more than we did today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    The only things proved archival are cave paintings.

    One can assume with modern techniques but you have no ability to control how the prints will be handled or displayed after sell them.

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    12,717

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LFLarry View Post
    Bob, while all of those things are true, the issue that I am trying to raise in this thread is about providing credible and unbiased information to buyers of silver gelatin prints, whether they be RC or Fiber based.

    In a competitive market where digital photographers can press the magic button on their computer and whip out inkjet prints that have sources like Wilhelm Institute saying that injket prints have an archival rating of about 400 years, the topic needs to be discussed and addressed amoungst practitioners that market and sell their prints.

    These same types of issue are a part of just about any type of business mode when good are being soldl. There is always competition or a faster way to do something and the sales people need ot be armed with quality information to help educate and inform customers. My goal is to dig out any information that is available from credible third party testers on the permanance of analog silver gelatin prints. After I tackles this, I need to do the same for silver chloride as well.

    As previously noted in the above comments and replies, this issue surfaced for me when I started printing on the new 5th generation Ilford Multigrade RC Deluxe paper and I liked my prints better on this paper than on the classic fiber paper. The holy grail would be to understand how the new Ilford RC emulsion performs from an archival perspective when properly processed, toned, and maybe even treated with Sistan.

    I am looking forward to additonal sources or tips from the group here so we can hopefully know a little bit more than we did today.
    Why not ask Ilford?

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    279

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    I have Bob and as of 32 days and 3 emails, no response as of yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Why not ask Ilford?

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    The Hague, Holland
    Posts
    57

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    Just a few personal observations, nothing scientific. Nearly every plastic object in my household that's over 30-40 years old is either drying out and developing cracks (hard plastics) or getting sticky (softer or rubbery plastics). Paper doesn't do that - I have magazines and newspapers that are older, and they've been stored in far less favourable conditions (a moisty cellar and an attic where temps reach +100F in summer and -10F in winter), and they're in much better condition. Just my 2 cents
    Sales person: Mirrorless, the most important innovation in photography in decades!
    Me: I always knew my Sinar 8x10 was way ahead of its time.

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    279

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    That is a very practical and valid point. Good observation. While I don't know that I will ever get the answers that I am looking for, I think it probably comes down to the guarantees that I make with my customers regarding the life of their prints. There are so many negative variables that are beyond the photographers control once the print is sold and leaves the studio. People could do all sorts of negative things such as place the print in direct sunlight, expose it to undesirable heat and humidity conditions, etc and then come back and make a claim the print failed. I suppose that is a risk no matter what media is used. It would still be nice to know if this brand new Ilford emulsion has incorporated and addressed any of the long-standing issues/claims associated with RC papers in general. I doubt that I will ever get that answer is my best guess at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
    Just a few personal observations, nothing scientific. Nearly every plastic object in my household that's over 30-40 years old is either drying out and developing cracks (hard plastics) or getting sticky (softer or rubbery plastics). Paper doesn't do that - I have magazines and newspapers that are older, and they've been stored in far less favourable conditions (a moisty cellar and an attic where temps reach +100F in summer and -10F in winter), and they're in much better condition. Just my 2 cents

  9. #19
    Drew Wiley
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    SF Bay area, CA
    Posts
    13,695

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    "New" and "archival rating" are antonyms. No track record! The same goes for all inkjet media. Extrapolating very brief torture test results might or might not give a realistic clue. It has nothing to do with "paper vs plastics" - there are very durable versions of both, and quite temporary versions too. Lots and lots of variables. If you go back to Wilhelm's classic work on image permanence you can note how he was generally on track about vintage media with a track record of their own, but sometimes way off about newly emerging media. That's unavoidable. If permanence is a priority, stick with something tried and true.

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Madisonville, LA
    Posts
    2,052

    Re: Archival Rating of The New Gen 5 Ilford RC Multigrade Deluxe Papers?

    Sorry, I don't print on plastic!

Similar Threads

  1. Data sheets for the new-generation Ilford Multigrade RC Deluxe are up
    By Oren Grad in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 3-Nov-2019, 12:12
  2. Ilford Multigrade 500
    By Michael Wellman in forum Darkroom: Equipment
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 9-Feb-2019, 17:50
  3. Archival inkjet *papers* (not ink). Do they exist?
    By Mike Chini in forum Digital Processing
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 17-Jan-2006, 19:28
  4. Ilford FP4+ ISO/ASA Rating
    By Juergen Sattler in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 19-Aug-2005, 20:33
  5. Difference between ilfochrome RC and Deluxe papers
    By Artie_1832 in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 13-Dec-2001, 10:44

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •