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Thread: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

  1. #41
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Just put my deposit on the 8000 Howtek. Should be by beginning of summer it arrives.

  2. #42
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Good luck with it.

  3. #43
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Ruttenberg View Post
    It was wet scanned while the Howtek was a dry scan (currently getting a wet scan of another neg for comparison of wet vs wet)
    Half of what you get from a drum scanner is fluid scanning. I wouldn't give you $0.05 for a dry scanned image from a drum scanner.

    Sadly, like you I wasted a bunch of time when I first got my scanner (ColorGetter 3 Pro) doing exactly what you're doing. And it was a complete waste of my time. No one in their right mind ever drum scans without fluid mounting now that the days of prepress are over. Since the only scans you'll actually use (that is, make prints from) are going to be fluid scans, you'll probably be best served by learning how to make good fluid mounts. And the only way to do that, is practice, practice, practice.

    Make your fluid mounts, then run your resolution tests. It's a more apple-to-apples comparison, and it lets you kill two birds with one stone (not that I condone killing birds).

    Bruce Watson

  4. #44

    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Bruce is correct here. A lot of the learning curve is in the proper fluid mounting of your film. That doesn't happen overnight and while there are a couple youtube vids on that, it's always more difficult when you do it on your own without someone to show you. Use more tape than you think is necessary. Don't let film cleaner to come anywhere near your drum. Take your time.

    When you compare a 4000 ppi drum scan with fluid and at the correct aperture to your Epson scan, you'll see a much great difference than you do now. Good luck.

  5. #45
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Lenny had a good video on this.
    May tomorrow be a better day.

  6. #46
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    I already fluid mount, the learning curve to mount on a drum is not a concern for me. I agree, I never intended to dry mounting scans on the drum scanner to begin with, these were just basic scans and I had made to see any difference could be seen. And I can see the difference. I have a wet scan that was done as well. I might post it up, but it is kind of pointless just based on the negativity from this post. The wet scan as mentioned above is even better than the dry scans.

    I am no novice to scanning film (albeit it is on a flatbed), and all of my scans have been wet mounted so I am quite familiar with the process of using fluid/mylar/cleaning. Yes, mounting on a drum in a mounting station will be different, but not something that will require years of practice. More like a day or two. I also have a semi-clean room where I mount my film for scanning. I have been able to reduce the contaminants in the scans somewhere between 50%-75%. Once my new home is completed, the office will be an uncertified clean room. Ie, it will be a clean room, but will not go thru the inspections that allow one to call it a true clean room.

    I am looking forward to using the drum scanner and learning everything I can do with it. What I have seen so far is impressive. Especially with the color rendering, even with just linear, raw scans and converting outside the scanner which is what I prefer to do. But the DPL software seems to afford a fairly robust workflow for conversion of negatives. That is something I will need to explore once I receive everything.

    And for the cost of this thing, you can be sure I will learn it and become an expert with it.

  7. #47
    Pali K Pali K's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Steven, if I can be of any help with drum scanning and my experience, please feel free to message me and Iíll share my email with you.

    I disagree with so much in this thread but I have learned my lesson to keep my thoughts and opinions to myself on the topic.

    Pali

  8. #48
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    I'm sorry to hear that, Pali. I value your input!
    May tomorrow be a better day.

  9. #49

    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Steven - I was fluid mounting flatbed scans back in the late 1990's before I got my first drum. Maybe you do learn it on the drum in a day or two, but I think it's going to take a bit longer to really get the hand of it and know for a fact that your film is not going to come flying off the drum in the middle of a scan. That happens to everyone at least once. But there are other things you might want to consider if you're scanning 4x5's which almost always have crimp marks from the clips in the Refrema, or whatever brand of processor has been used. I took a pair of flat pliers and ground and polished the mating faces to a mirror finish to use to clamp down and flatten those pesky crimp marks so you have fewer issues with bubbles and focus around them.

    "I never intended to dry mounting scans on the drum scanner to begin with, these were just basic scans and I had made to see any difference could be seen. And I can see the difference. I have a wet scan that was done as well. I might post it up, but it is kind of pointless just based on the negativity from this post. "

    As an engineer you say you are on your website, I'm surprised at this statement. It just makes no sense to purposefully make a shitty scan for comparison purposes. But where has been the negativity you're talking of. If you're aiming that comment in my direction and saying that my pointing out the horrible quality of both the process and the end result of your evaluative scan is somehow negative, then I'm confused. Or, if you couldn't see how bad that was, well, that's a whole 'nuther issue as well, but the only negativity I've seen in this thread hasn't been aimed at you but at how incompetent the people who sold you your scanner appear to be.

    If you want to get the most out of the scanner, if it hasn't been to see Evan yet, it's probably a good idea to get it there for a thorough checkup. The first item that will need replacing, other than the drive belts, will be the support bearing on the right side of the drum. When Howtek went to the 8000 they also spec'd some rather substandard bearings for that application and they all disintegrate, spewing bronze dust everywhere sooner or later. Aztek upgraded those with a much higher spec bearing that will likely never wear out in normal use. The good news is that that should be a user replaceable item as it self aligns on installation, unlike the giant end bearing for the huge drums on the 7500, which require a custom laser alignment.

    The other place where stock 8000's were deficient was in the alignment of the optical system and they can often be made better by a custom alignment of said system. I had that shortly after I purchased my 8000 back in '01. Main improvement was in having less flare around the rebate edge of transparency film. And all too often, the halogen light bulbs need to be slightly tweaked to align their central hotspot to the end of the fiber optic cables feeding to the lens assembly, which of course, leads to making sure that the lens is properly cleaned.

    Watch for cracks in the drive belt and replace early and often. They're cheap but not when you order them from Aztek. I can post later the item number and where to get them from. The same goes for the bulbs. Bulbtronics is a good source for those and you don't need the full assembly, just the Osram bulbs which should be in the $20 range.

  10. #50
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of Howtek 8000 Resolve to Epson V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatchian View Post
    Steven - I was fluid mounting flatbed scans back in the late 1990's before I got my first drum. Maybe you do learn it on the drum in a day or two, but I think it's going to take a bit longer to really get the hand of it and know for a fact that your film is not going to come flying off the drum in the middle of a scan. That happens to everyone at least once. But there are other things you might want to consider if you're scanning 4x5's which almost always have crimp marks from the clips in the Refrema, or whatever brand of processor has been used. I took a pair of flat pliers and ground and polished the mating faces to a mirror finish to use to clamp down and flatten those pesky crimp marks so you have fewer issues with bubbles and focus around them.

    "I never intended to dry mounting scans on the drum scanner to begin with, these were just basic scans and I had made to see any difference could be seen. And I can see the difference. I have a wet scan that was done as well. I might post it up, but it is kind of pointless just based on the negativity from this post. "



    As an engineer you say you are on your website, I'm surprised at this statement. It just makes no sense to purposefully make a shitty scan for comparison purposes. But where has been the negativity you're talking of. If you're aiming that comment in my direction and saying that my pointing out the horrible quality of both the process and the end result of your evaluative scan is somehow negative, then I'm confused. Or, if you couldn't see how bad that was, well, that's a whole 'nuther issue as well, but the only negativity I've seen in this thread hasn't been aimed at you but at how incompetent the people who sold you your scanner appear to be.

    If you want to get the most out of the scanner, if it hasn't been to see Evan yet, it's probably a good idea to get it there for a thorough checkup. The first item that will need replacing, other than the drive belts, will be the support bearing on the right side of the drum. When Howtek went to the 8000 they also spec'd some rather substandard bearings for that application and they all disintegrate, spewing bronze dust everywhere sooner or later. Aztek upgraded those with a much higher spec bearing that will likely never wear out in normal use. The good news is that that should be a user replaceable item as it self aligns on installation, unlike the giant end bearing for the huge drums on the 7500, which require a custom laser alignment.

    The other place where stock 8000's were deficient was in the alignment of the optical system and they can often be made better by a custom alignment of said system. I had that shortly after I purchased my 8000 back in '01. Main improvement was in having less flare around the rebate edge of transparency film. And all too often, the halogen light bulbs need to be slightly tweaked to align their central hotspot to the end of the fiber optic cables feeding to the lens assembly, which of course, leads to making sure that the lens is properly cleaned.

    Watch for cracks in the drive belt and replace early and often. They're cheap but not when you order them from Aztek. I can post later the item number and where to get them from. The same goes for the bulbs. Bulbtronics is a good source for those and you don't need the full assembly, just the Osram bulbs which should be in the $20 range.

    I did not intend my comments at you.

    As for being an engineer and and scientist, when I do something like a test, I test for what I want to examine. All else is noise. In this case, a dirty scan is noise, I am and was looking for other things, not how much dust and lint can be kept off the scan, nor was I looking for how well someone can convert a negative to a positive. What I was looking for I could plainly see and I am satisfied. I asked the individual to do exactly what they did. Ignore making a pristine scan. I wanted to see the scan with zero clean up, etc in all its ugly. You can always post something that has been manipulated, etc for the pr campaign to post up and try to get someone to spend a fortune on one of these scanners. I already know what they are capable of and was sold a while ago. I just wanted a bit more than a warm fuzzy when I plopped down a check for one of these. They may be cheaper than when first introduced, but they are still pricey as hell!

    This scanner has been refurbished to factory specs, comes with warranty on parts, service and labor as well as instruction if I want by someone who has over 2 decades of servicing these scanners, Tangos, etc.

    The whole point of the thread was to show a general scan both dry and wet. If I were to post up one of my flatbed scans even with all the up front work I do in a fairly dust free environment, they would show a lot of dirt. I have had air bubbles show up during scans etc. I fix all of this prior to showing my work. Whether or not someone likes my work is a different story. Anyone can spend an hour in photoshop cleaning up dirt.

    Things I noticed were better color rendition after conversion between the epson and 8000, better shadow detail, better detail/sharpness, better gradations. And while I will agree these are just samples and with learning the scanner once I get it and getting some practice in they will be far above what my epson will produce. Perhaps at that point, I will post up finished products between the two.

    I develop my film and hold the edge of film for drying using a plastic clothes pin which leaves essentially no deformation or marks. I develop in an sp445, and soon an expert drum. I have not had issues with bubbles due to marks from hanging film.

    The negativity comes from people who do not thoroughly read the post and just start putting up opinions without qualification. Just like when I was an active body builder, plenty on the forums would spout advice, tell you how great they look, etc, but none would post up proof. I did because it is important to be honest and not hide behind a keyboard. When people do that, then people like Pali and others will stop giving out advice. I have seen his work, etc and know what he is talking about. I know Peter info is good and he has helped me in a great way in learning my film and is still helping. But I am not surprised when people like them stop giving out advice.

    Your advice is sound as far a I can tell and all good. I am gonna run your suggestions by the owner of the company and see what his take is.

    Yes, post up the info on the parts, I would like to have alternate sources for getting stuff for the scanner. I want to stock up on the myriad of parts so I can keep this thing going till I am pushing up daisies.

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