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Thread: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Kit?

  1. #251

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Jim has expressed my opinion almost to a word.
    Sandy, let me make a direct interpelation and a proposition:


    Interpelation:

    This pixel-peeping is smashing evidence that for color negative film the Epson performs excatly the same than a drum and the Creos

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1505196


    Any doubt about that?



    Proposition:


    It's worth that the community also knows how each way performs in BW, if a cheap/simple Epson does it, if we need a Creo, if DSLR it's worth or how better drum is to perform, and at what enlargement it would be noticed. No doubt.

    So lets do a side by side, I propose next:


    I offer shooting several times a test scene with HP5+ and TMX 4x5" and sending negatives to several people to scan it with drum and dslr (one shot and stitching), then we may compare grain from V850 vs X5 vs Drum vs DSLR.

    Scene: Ample SBR with smooth and microcontrasty areas.

    Films:
    HP5+ and TMX (what I've at hand).

    Developers: Xtol and HC-110, totalling 4 sheets per scanner.

    Schedule: Juliet

    or propose an equivalent alternative.





    I advance you that with the Epson I'll nail de results of the superior machines at least for x8 enlarged prints, with mild edition that I'll disclose to be repeatable like in the linked 2019 CN pixel-peeping. Jim may do the Creo, you the Sony job, then we only need a drum and somebody taking the challenge in a flextight. Interneg, are you ready for action?


    No more trolling, now it's time for the facts. Do we go?

  2. #252

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Already plenty of test results out there for scanners IMO. If someone picks up an old scanner they are free to review the existing literature to determine if the device is suitable for their needs. The sites below are just a drop in the bucket.

    https://www.filmscanner.info/en/Epso...V700Photo.html

    https://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/V700/V700.HTM

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...an-comparison/

    Sandy
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
    [url]https://groups.io/g/carbon

  3. #253

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Already plenty of test results out there for scanners IMO.
    Sandy, there are many tests but none much useful for us. Let me explain why I insist.



    The Collaborative Scanner test was made in C-41 color film, but most of us do mainly BW for LF, and there is no well made scanner side by side showing the nuances of grain depiction.

    Also many times the Epson has not been optimally used in the side by side tests, an exception is the job made by Pali that sported quite a lot of proficiency, to equal a Creo with a V700 one requires some skills, not everyone is able. As posted below 1mm drop from slight sheet film curling ends in exactly the half optical performance, which IMO explains why may some people feel the Epson is only good for x4.

    We have a new situation, the V800 has ANR holders improving focus/flatness, new illumination probably expands DMax quite a lot, we also have the new DSLR scanning trend, and we have the drums as the absolute reference to compare. Also present computer performance allows to deal with very big files, so workflow parameters have changed a lot.

    To me it's time to review the paradigms of the past
    , to check how each system may perform the best possible, and to compare the yield in practice.

    My view is that the (incomplete) test made by Pali evidences that it's time to make a new side by side that should include DSLR scanning.


    At the end I only ask that some people scan some four 4x5" negatives and sharing the result in a Dropbox...

  4. #254
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Sandy, there are many tests but none much useful for us. Let me explain why I insist.



    The Collaborative Scanner test was made in C-41 color film, but most of us do mainly BW for LF, and there is no well made scanner side by side showing the nuances of grain depiction.

    Also many times the Epson has not been optimally used in the side by side tests, an exception is the job made by Pali that sported quite a lot of proficiency, to equal a Creo with a V700 one requires some skills, not everyone is able. As posted below 1mm drop from slight sheet film curling ends in exactly the half optical performance, which IMO explains why may some people feel the Epson is only good for x4.

    We have a new situation, the V800 has ANR holders improving focus/flatness, new illumination probably expands DMax quite a lot, we also have the new DSLR scanning trend, and we have the drums as the absolute reference to compare. Also present computer performance allows to deal with very big files, so workflow parameters have changed a lot.

    To me it's time to review the paradigms of the past
    , to check how each system may perform the best possible, and to compare the yield in practice.

    My view is that the (incomplete) test made by Pali evidences that it's time to make a new side by side that should include DSLR scanning.


    At the end I only ask that some people scan some four 4x5" negatives and sharing the result in a Dropbox...


    I just got a V850 and scanned 2400 bit Tmax 100 in 4x5. I posted the edited ones on Flickr 1900x1600. If you want the originally sized scan, I could send them to a dropbox either before or after I sharpened them or both ways. Let me know. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...57714124881023

  5. #255
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    [/U][/B]
    I just got a V850 and scanned 2400 bit Tmax 100 in 4x5. I posted the edited ones on Flickr 1900x1600. If you want the originally sized scan, I could send them to a dropbox either before or after I sharpened them or both ways. Let me know. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...57714124881023
    Did you determine the best height to suspend the negative? How did you keep the negative flat?
    May tomorrow be a better day.

  6. #256
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    PS. I used the Epson ANR glass negative holders that come with the V850 and scanned "flat" with no sharpening or changes in the scans other than setting the black and white points beyond the histogram so not to clip. All editing was done in post so I can provide a "clean" scan file. The files are in tiff 200mb, 16 bit grayscale.

  7. #257
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Did you determine the best height to suspend the negative? How did you keep the negative flat?
    Yes. The new Epson V850 holders come with 5 stop adjustments, a slider at each corner of the holder. I set them at the optimum. One holder was the middle setting. And the other holder was the bottom setting. There are two holders furnished with each V850 for each type of film format. Actually I was surprised that there was a difference in sharpness.

  8. #258
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    If someone wants to scan one of my negatives with a drum for comparison, I'd be glad to send the negative to you. I'd love to see what a drum scan can do with it and see what a comparison between drum and V850 can do. The only thing I request is you make the full scan results available to me when you return the negative. I can provide a memory card.

  9. #259

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    If someone wants to scan one of my negatives with a drum for comparison, I'd be glad to send the negative to you. I'd love to see what a drum scan can do with it and see what a comparison between drum and V850 can do. The only thing I request is you make the full scan results available to me when you return the negative. I can provide a memory card.

    We may review a posted side by side made by member Steve Ruttenberg, he purchased a drum after the V850, we may beg his permission to compare his crops after a simple but a bit more refined edition. He is new to drums, but it can be a nice starting point. I edited the crops in my PC and I could totally match the images easily, in sharpness and tonality, both BW and CN.


    With the Epson a proficient scanning is required, it is not a Pro machine and to get stellar results we should fine tune focus and preform a wise workflow. A Flextight is a totally Pro machine that ensures focus to be scanning all day long without thinking in focus, this is not the Epson case, sadly.

    Let me explain better that graph: A 1.2mm drop in the film height, (which would be quite easy with the old 4x5 holders with the heating during the long time the scanning takes) performance is just the half, see the graph:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Epson.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	62.4 KB 
ID:	204362

    Resolved target in micrometers goes from 6.8 microns to 13.7 microns with the 1.2mm height drop.

    Many that had been ensuring some flatness with the old holders they did not thought that film reheats while scanning, and a 1mm drop in the height it's quite easy to happen in a 100mm scan width if reheated film is in the air. Well, the same than with enlargers, my Nega 138 glass holder ensures a flawless job, in the same way the new Epson ANR 4x5" glass holders are a great improvement, we only need for force the curling up to make the glass flattering work.

    This is the new Paradigm: Want to get top notch results from a $500 cheap machine ? Be proficient...

  10. #260
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    We may review a posted side by side made by member Steve Ruttenberg, he purchased a drum after the V850, we may beg his permission to compare his crops after a simple but a bit more refined edition. He is new to drums, but it can be a nice starting point. I edited the crops in my PC and I could totally match the images easily, in sharpness and tonality, both BW and CN.


    With the Epson a proficient scanning is required, it is not a Pro machine and to get stellar results we should fine tune focus and preform a wise workflow. A Flextight is a totally Pro machine that ensures focus to be scanning all day long without thinking in focus, this is not the Epson case, sadly.

    Let me explain better that graph: A 1.2mm drop in the film height, (which would be quite easy with the old 4x5 holders with the heating during the long time the scanning takes) performance is just the half, see the graph:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Epson.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	62.4 KB 
ID:	204362

    Resolved target in micrometers goes from 6.8 microns to 13.7 microns with the 1.2mm height drop.

    Many that had been ensuring some flatness with the old holders they did not thought that film reheats while scanning, and a 1mm drop in the height it's quite easy to happen in a 100mm scan width if reheated film is in the air. Well, the same than with enlargers, my Nega 138 glass holder ensures a flawless job, in the same way the new Epson ANR 4x5" glass holders are a great improvement, we only need for force the curling up to make the glass flattering work.

    This is the new Paradigm: Want to get top notch results from a $500 cheap machine ? Be proficient...
    My V850 has a LED light that is not hot like the V700's. PLus, the 4x5 V850 holders press the film against a built-in mounted ANR glass to keep it flat unlike the V700 holders. The V850 holders also have an adjustment to raise and lower the holder to get the best focal point.

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