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Thread: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Kit?

  1. #231
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Having separate profiles for each film stock is even better. Wolf Faust , Hutch color, and others made the profiling targets. It really does make a difference, which I know from first hand experience.
    Please stop feeding the trolls.

  2. #232

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    With the Epson without stitching... it's only about nailing flatness/focus.

    The X5 resolves 2600 effective with 3000 scans, so 0% MTF at 2600, quite a surprisingly low value for such an expensive machine, and if scanning 4x5" without stitching you have 0% MTF at 1800 or 1700. It is totally impressive for 35mm, but for LF having to stitch to go beyond 1700
    All you've demonstrated is a total lack of knowledge of the mechanical behaviour of the internals of the Imacon design. And that vague multiplications of a supposed scan of a film copy of a chrome on glass target are never a good idea when dealing with complex opto-mechanical systems. If you wanted your statement to have the vaguest hint of integrity you'd upload the scan you supposedly had made, so that everyone could peer review it. You are hanging the totality of your flawed claims on the matter of a difference of the resolution of one element in group 5 - and if you had any knowledge of the literature around why the USAF-1951 is a poor comparison device when discussing total optical performance, you would know that one of the biggest problems with the USAF-1951 surrounds the problem of defining what the smallest element resolved in a particular test actually is. Cognitive bias is a big problem here. I would not be surprised if you over-read the Epson test you supposedly did, and under-read the Imacon, because that suited what you wanted the result to be. Either share the scan, or stop making the claim.

  3. #233
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Confirmation bias also enters these threads quite regularly....
    Please stop feeding the trolls.

  4. #234

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Confirmation bias also enters these threads quite regularly....
    Very much so, especially with those who want to prove how 'clever' their cheapness and rampantly amateurish approach is. The total lack of even the most passing engagement with the tenets of scientific method (specifically: repeatability and falsifiability) often leaves me with Wolfgang Pauli's famous comments stuck in my mind!

    I probably shouldn't tell them that it's actually quite easy to repeat essentially what the Epson does if you have two slightly offset 1200ppi scans and interpolate the lot together to 2400ppi... You even get the same odd 'wooly' unsharpness that's so distinctive of the Epson outcomes.

    Then again, much in life would be simpler if the Ansel-manqués were able to realise that they are making huge pseudo-technical mountains out of the merest suggestions of molehills.

  5. #235

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    All you've demonstrated is a total lack of knowledge of the mechanical behaviour of the internals of the Imacon design.
    The thing is quite clear.

    The X5 always resolves at contrast extintion the same amount of pixels in the scan width, around 6900, the more inches the scan width has the less pixels per inch resolved.

    When lens position makes the sensor cover 1" (35mm film) then the X5 resolves (at contrast extintion) Element 7.2 horizontal and two elements less for the vertical direction, so it has contrast extintion at 6900dpi average which is 85% yield of the hardware dpi at contrast extintion.

    At 2040dpi flextight manual says it delivers 1800 dpi also at contrast extintion with a 90% optimistic yield, it's more 1700dpi with a 85% yield, but lets admit 1800 at extintion. This is when lens position makes the sensor cover 4" wide film.

    At 3000 samples per inch you also can infere that you will have around a 90% yield for the contrast extintion dpi, which is 2700 or if the loss is 15% which is more plausible, you would have 2550 at contrast extintion. Anyway the reality should be in between.


    No mistery...


    What is clear is that if you scan 4" at 2040dpi you will have contrast extintion in element 5.1 or 5.2. If not, tell me what element resolves your hassie in those conditions...


    We don't have the MTF graph of the Magnagon, but we have the Apo Rodagon 2x which is a close match, well... if you are minimally able to interpret a MFT graph then this totally matches what I've just stated. Use the calculator...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (The pictured lens is the 1x, the graph is for the 2x)

    Or were you guessing that you had 100% MTF at 2040dpi when covering 4" ? LOL... life is not that wonderful, at 1800 you have extintion 0% MTF.

    The points above are flawless, but we can discuss them one by one if you don't agree with something.



    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    I would not be surprised if you over-read the Epson test
    I fully agree with the V700 one posted by Pali in the 2019 Scanner Test, check it. For the X5 I fully agree with published tests, resolving at extintion average 7.1 with 1" test, and obviusly 1/4 of that at 4" / 2040dpi.



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Confirmation bias also enters these threads quite regularly....
    First, that reasoning you have above is flawless, no byas.

    Second, it's you that are introducing byas. You just stated that people don't like the Epsons because flawed color, but it's exactly the counter:

    min 22:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9d8BukUgzI

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Third, you add to the Lachlan Yuong personal attacks in group trolling mode, which is your specialty. You have a beam in the eye, regarding what's trolling.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 29-May-2020 at 17:50.

  6. #236
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Okay, folks, don’t make it personal. We are all friends here, or we can at least act like we are.

    Rick “and let’s try to minimize going in circles” Denney

  7. #237
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Circles of confusion...
    Please stop feeding the trolls.

  8. #238

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Ok, no more circles, let's draw my conclusions for "Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount"


    For Color negative film we have smashing evidence: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1505196

    > This pixel-peeping is a totally reliable proof that the can exactly enlarge to the same print size from CN scans: from the Epson and for a drum. The X1 Flextight should also be similar or at least we can stitch two crops taking nearly all sheet to match.

    > For the Epson the Aztek Wet Mount will ensure perfect focus delivering a Pro feel, but also the new ANR glass holders may work, the Epson is a Prosumer machine requiring to manually ensure focus for optimal results, the Flextight is Pro machine that ensures focus, but it has lower performance for 5x7" and no 8x10".

    > A drum is always the total perfection in any situation, but ownership has many problems, scanning service is expensive, for CN has no advantage because CN it's too easy to scan.




    BW LF film:

    All sytems will resolve well the usual image quality LF negatives have, differences will be in grain depiction. For LF the Flextight and the Epson don't have a resolving power to scan grain perfectly but drum has to scan at nominal 6000 or more to scan grain significatively better than the other, which it would be expensive. Again the Epson requires an effort to ensure focus to get top quality for plain oversized prints.

    Recently a member here compared his Epson vs his Drum scans, we may inspect the crops, with mild edition we can easily match results. We can go to it.

    Drum has a more collimated illumination like a condenser enlarger. Flatbeds have an illumination closer to diffusion enlarger. Flextight system had its illumination design modified time ago to be less collimated.

    More collimation more Callier effect. Callier is about taste.




    Velvia:

    The flextight and the drum have better DMax than the V700 for recovering very underexposed velvia. But now Silverfast guys say that with the V800/V850 Multi-Exposure gets 4.08D when for the V700 they were stating 3.38D. Is this from the new illumination? new Firmware? Is that performance true? (They cite the same ISO norm that was also used to rate top dollar scanners)

    I guess we should make a side by side M-E V850 vs drum for dense Velvia, to see what was improved or not.



    Color management:

    I agree with the Nick Carver tube, the Epson delivers straight the best CN color inversion. For slides as we speak about IT8 calibrated machines we get the same. DSLR scans delivers initial worse color, but IMO with a proficient edition all systems match.

    What is true is that the Epson inversion is the best straight, requiring a less complex color edition, specially for portraiture. Matt Osborne scans his many film fashion works with a V800, we can browse his albums to see a very consistent portraiture color job: https://www.flickr.com/photos/32681588@N03/albums https://www.flickr.com/photos/32681588@N03/albums

  9. #239
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Ok, no more circles, let's draw my conclusions for "Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount"


    For Color negative film we have smashing evidence: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1505196

    > This pixel-peeping is a totally reliable proof that the can exactly enlarge to the same print size from CN scans: from the Epson and for a drum. The X1 Flextight should also be similar or at least we can stitch two crops taking nearly all sheet to match.

    > For the Epson the Aztek Wet Mount will ensure perfect focus delivering a Pro feel, but also the new ANR glass holders may work, the Epson is a Prosumer machine requiring to manually ensure focus for optimal results, the Flextight is Pro machine that ensures focus, but it has lower performance for 5x7" and no 8x10".

    > A drum is always the total perfection in any situation, but ownership has many problems, scanning service is expensive, for CN has no advantage because CN it's too easy to scan.




    BW LF film:

    All sytems will resolve well the usual image quality LF negatives have, differences will be in grain depiction. For LF the Flextight and the Epson don't have a resolving power to scan grain perfectly but drum has to scan at nominal 6000 or more to scan grain significatively better than the other, which it would be expensive. Again the Epson requires an effort to ensure focus to get top quality for plain oversized prints.

    Recently a member here compared his Epson vs his Drum scans, we may inspect the crops, with mild edition we can easily match results. We can go to it.

    Drum has a more collimated illumination like a condenser enlarger. Flatbeds have an illumination closer to diffusion enlarger. Flextight system had its illumination design modified time ago to be less collimated.

    More collimation more Callier effect. Callier is about taste.




    Velvia:

    The flextight and the drum have better DMax than the V700 for recovering very underexposed velvia. But now Silverfast guys say that with the V800/V850 Multi-Exposure gets 4.08D when for the V700 they were stating 3.38D. Is this from the new illumination? new Firmware? Is that performance true? (They cite the same ISO norm that was also used to rate top dollar scanners)

    I guess we should make a side by side M-E V850 vs drum for dense Velvia, to see what was improved or not.



    Color management:

    I agree with the Nick Carver tube, the Epson delivers straight the best CN color inversion. For slides as we speak about IT8 calibrated machines we get the same. DSLR scans delivers initial worse color, but IMO with a proficient edition all systems match.

    What is true is that the Epson inversion is the best straight, requiring a less complex color edition, specially for portraiture. Matt Osborne scans his many film fashion works with a V800, we can browse his albums to see a very consistent portraiture color job: https://www.flickr.com/photos/32681588@N03/albums https://www.flickr.com/photos/32681588@N03/albums
    How does Silverfast change the speed of the V700 and V850 during multi exposure to slow it down to harvest more data? Have you actually seen this? Have you compared the results to a single normal pass and using shadow control on a post processing program?

  10. #240

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    How does Silverfast change the speed of the V700 and V850 during multi exposure to slow it down to harvest more data? Have you actually seen this? Have you compared the results to a single normal pass and using shadow control on a post processing program?
    M-E takes at least twice the time as two scans are made in two passes. Some Pro scanners may be making the two exposures in a single pass, taking two shots before davancing the carriage or the film.

    The quality boost you have from M-E in very deep Velvia shadows is impressive, not only gets much more shadow detail, it also removes noise in it. It is fantastic !! But you will only see the benefits in very dense underexposed areas of slides or extreme highlights of negatives.

    Just try it... it is not a mild difference in the extreme velvia shadows, it's a huge difference, when I compared it the first time I got atonished.

    M-E also can be used to recover highlight detail of extreme highlights of BW color and color negative film, of course with negative film you have the extreme densities in the extreme highlights, in glares, shines, light sources...

    (As always, scan 16-bit/channel and safe in TIFF, take all histogram to get a dull image and adjust curves in Photoshop).

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