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Thread: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Kit?

  1. #101

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by letchhausen View Post
    I have tried scanning on a couple Epson's and my experience has always been negative. Total pain in the ass and the scans are crap. I own an Epson and I only use it for scanning prints for the web. Mostly I scan negatives on a FlexTight in NYC
    Problem is not the scanner. But the man in NYC knows how to edit color, as many Pro scanner operators.

    See here how Pali K nails exactly the same colors in a side by side of two Creos, a Scanmate 11000 Drum and an Epson V700 https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1478033


    Epson and Flextight are both IT8 calibrated machines:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Both have to nail exactly the same calibrated RGB values for each particular patch, and they both do, colors in the target are quite a wide range to ensure a perfect color calibration.


    What's the difference?

    The man in NYC is everyday, all day long, playing with color !! Are you ? (Now you have a clue about what happens)

    If you spend a full month with an image playing with balance, contrast, saturation, curves, etc you won't match his color edition because probably he used a 3D LUT transformation that cannot be emulated with your tools.


    Want to control color? empower your self.

    First calibrate your Epson with the included target, if it is a V700/750 the lamp changes over time, the LED illuminated V800/850 are totally stable.

    > Get the best color edition tool and master it: 3D LUT Creator.

    > Get a battery of good presets (for Ps or standalone) and explore it well to solve with 2 clicks many of the shots.

    We probably will never reach the level of a good Pro colorist, many they are true artists, but if you are creative and if you enjoy color edition you will be able to customize your images in a superior and personal way.


    ________________________________

    If you want, post (dropbox) the Epson scan and X5 scan, (16 bits/channel) and I'll show you how color can be matched with little effort, 3D LUT Creator feature makes a conversion 3D LUT in two clicks.

    ________________________________


    PD: Color is like a trials bike, with the same bike I don't do the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQFIkz202c0

    PD: Scan 16 bits/channel, save in tiff, take all histogram for a dull initial image having all range.

    PD: color enhacement is a post scanning science that has been critically important in the industry, it was used in digital minilabs and today it is used in the smartphone cameras. Best choice is having the scan as raw as possible an later using the dedicated software tools you prefer.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 2-Dec-2019 at 05:42. Reason: spelling

  2. #102
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    "Effective" resolution as measured by DXO may be consistent across their site but is only applicable for that single use-case, and I note that most of the time that use-case (whatever it is) will be very different from camera scanning, especially with regard to apertures used. Also, it's important to note that one can use the "sweet-spot" of FF lenses on an APS-C sensor, whereas if one is trying to maximize the sensor surface area usage by including the poorer edges on a FF sensor the results could be mediocre (I wonder if it could even cause issues stitching).

    That said, to play a little game, let's look at the supposed "effective" resolution between this FF camera and m43 camera:

    https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sigma...ikon-D750__975

    https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Olymp...rk-II---__1136

    We see supposedly 20mp on the FF camera vs. 15mp on the m43 camera. Comparing the short side of the sensor in pixels of that "effective" resolution, I calculate it as about 3660 pixels vs. 3360 - pretty negligible. And, that m43 camera is 16mp while the FF camera is 24mp! There is a newer Olympus that is 20mp and probably closes the gap.

    So the difference is meaningless for most purposes, and once you stitch just a couple of frames, if you are really trying to maximize resolution, or perhaps try the pixel-shift tech as mentioned, the m43 is probably just as good as the FF in this one instance. Basically the lens is important, as is the resolution of the sensor, and for most purposes you can get as much resolution as you need with a couple of frames and stitching or other techniques, as long as one nails down their methodology and technique with regard to the negative and camera mounting.

    Heck, I've made decent "camera scans" with my phone.
    Bryan | Blog | YouTube | Instagram
    All comments and thoughtful critique welcome

  3. #103

    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    By the way Negative Lab Pro 2.1 is out. There are some expanded features here that are going to be very useful. Included are a great many ways to add metadata to your film scans. It looks like there are also some new settings for those scanning from traditional scanners via Vuescan or similar.

    Black Friday sale going on: https://forums.negativelabpro.com/t/...-much-more/873

    The conversions I've done with this are the best I've seen outside of Fuji Image Intelligence.

  4. #104

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by sperdynamite View Post
    Fuji Image Intelligence.
    This is not only a conversion, it is a conversion plus an image enhacement tool.

    Today image enhancing software (in portrait) detects gender, race, skin type, hair color, age, eye color, face features... and it makes special adjustments for each area, overcoming pitfalls in the illumination, etc.

    Also in landscape it detects many features... it automates many adjustments.

    Fuji (frontier) Noritsu, etc. raced a long time to have the best enhacements, and it's not by chance that Fuji has that high level in that matter. This is important for a pro job, as it reduces costly manpower in image edition.

    Instead an artist may prefer another approach, this is having a raw standard conversion and later editing the image in a personal way, it is not easy to beat auto adjustments with a manual processing, but an artist may want a personal footprint in his works.

    Remarkably (IIRC) some wedding/fashion Pros (of the Josť Villa nature) have developed custom profiles in collaboration with the labs they work with, in that way they have a basic consistence and a personal footprint.

  5. #105

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    There has been some speculation in this thread that pixel shifting with cameras such as the Panasonic S1R/Sony a7r iv does not result in much actual effective gain in resolution. I finally had the time to test this myself with a Sony a7r iv and a high resolution target, with the camera on a copy stand and the target over a led panel. My calculation is that the actual resolution of the single shot file gave resolution of 110 lpm, and the 16 shot pixel shift file gave resolution of approximately 210 lpm. The single shot file is 9504 x 6336 px in size, the 16 shot pixel shift file is 19008 x 12626 px in size. My test was done with a 55mm Sony/Zeiss at f/4, with an auto extension set at about 1:2. This is a great lens but not designed for macro work so could most likely get even higher resolution with a good auto-focus macro lens.

    I used the Image Editing software of Sony to process the RAW pixel shift collections, then edited in Camera Raw. Pretty straight forward and a lot simpler than I originally assumed.

    Sandy
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
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  6. #106

    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Awesome, Sandy...assuming you've got enough computing horsepower, doesn't 5x7 start looking awfully good for this kind of workflow?

  7. #107

    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    There has been some speculation in this thread that pixel shifting with cameras such as the Panasonic S1R/Sony a7r iv does not result in much actual effective gain in resolution. I finally had the time to test this myself with a Sony a7r iv and a high resolution target, with the camera on a copy stand and the target over a led panel. My calculation is that the actual resolution of the single shot file gave resolution of 110 lpm, and the 16 shot pixel shift file gave resolution of approximately 210 lpm. The single shot file is 9504 x 6336 px in size, the 16 shot pixel shift file is 19008 x 12626 px in size. My test was done with a 55mm Sony/Zeiss at f/4, with an auto extension set at about 1:2. This is a great lens but not designed for macro work so could most likely get even higher resolution with a good auto-focus macro lens.

    I used the Image Editing software of Sony to process the RAW pixel shift collections, then edited in Camera Raw. Pretty straight forward and a lot simpler than I originally assumed.

    Sandy
    It makes scanning soooo much easier. I understand the skepticism, which I originally had as well. But it just WORKS!

  8. #108
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Pixel shift by B&H with examples 1 year old, if you have newer Data please post

    Pixel-Shift Shootout: Olympus vs. Pentax vs. Sony vs. Panasonic

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora...y-vs-panasonic
    sin eater

  9. #109

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by CreationBear View Post
    Awesome, Sandy...assuming you've got enough computing horsepower, doesn't 5x7 start looking awfully good for this kind of workflow?
    Use of a pixel shift workflow looks promising for digitizing film of all size, as well as photographing anything not in motion.

    However, to take advantage of of this very high resolution technology I think you will need a modern high quality macro lens that gives good performance at the desired magnification.

    To add to the last sentence, I digitized a 5X7 negative using 16 shot pixel shift, photographing with a 105 mm Micro Nikkor (film era) to compare with a drum scan previously made with a Howtek at 2000 dpi. The pixel shift file looked OK on my large monotor, but close up comparison with the image made with the drum scan showed the pixel shift file to be of lower image quality.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 12-Dec-2019 at 09:33.
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
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  10. #110

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    Re: Should I Drum Scan, X1 Flextight Scan, or use the Epson V850 w/Aztek Wet Mount Ki

    Pere - I think you misunderstand, I don't pay someone in NYC to scan my negatives. I rent a Flextight by the hour and scan them myself (in 3F). The scanner is much easier to use than the Epson and the scans are great. The scans I had done in Seattle had color work done by someone, though I had still had to do some work, it was minimal with the Imacon, I basically thew away the Epson scans. I'll look into 3D LUT Creator, though, thanks for the tips!

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