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Thread: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

  1. #101
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    No need for even a scan and digital printer. All it takes is a registered sheet of frosted mylar painted with fast-drying colored dye, or even just soft pencil smudge if you split print. In this elementary fashion, it's just a semi-automated form of VC dodging and burning for sake of repeatability.

  2. #102

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    No need for even a scan and digital printer. All it takes is a registered sheet of frosted mylar painted with fast-drying colored dye,
    ok, this time you have done your homework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    it's just a semi-automated form of VC dodging and burning for sake of repeatability.
    Not only that. It also allows perfection with prints that require a very complex manipulation, otherwise it would be difficult to nail all steps.


    _____________________

    It looks that you have never tried that way, you may try it, it can be recommended.

  3. #103

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    Nope: it can be as few as 2, as many as 5.
    Nope: "MULTIGRADE papers are coated with an emulsion which is a mixture of three separate emulsions."

    https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-co...Multigrade.pdf
    Page 1


    What VC paper has 2 or 5 emulsions???

    What one has 2 emulsion layers instead a mixture?


    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    Very little of each dye is used (to prevent staining), supersensitisers are key.
    This is LOL, once sensitized emulsion can be washed and sensitization remains.


    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    All he did was popularise/ formalise what people have been doing for about as long as masking techniques have existed.
    You overlook AA contribuition to the way we today understand what it is fine art photography.



    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    not a fetish to obsess over.
    of course

  4. #104
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    If you want to seriously discuss things like masking or VC emulsions, perhaps that would best be done on different threads than this one. There was a time when several of my favorite graded papers disappeared, then a couple anemic versions of those same brands came out, and via masking I was able to get reasonable print quality anyway. But with today's selection of high quality VC papers, masking should not even be needed in a REMEDIAL sense if one has intelligently exposed and developed their film, including TMax. It is still useful for enhancing microtanality and edge effect, automating dodging & burning etc.

  5. #105

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    What VC paper has 2 or 5 emulsions???

    What one has 2 emulsion layers instead a mixture?

    For example ADOX's MCC/MCP uses 4 emulsion components, new Polywarmtone also has 4 & needs to be coated as a 2 emulsion layer package (+ supercoating). Old emulsions like some of the Dupont/ Efke era were two emulsion as far as is known. The third emulsion component was a later innovation. Taking a single manufacturer's preferred & highly evolved design/ manufacturing approach as universally applicable doctrine is indicative of limited reading/ understanding of very complex technological changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    This is LOL, once sensitized emulsion can be washed and sensitization remains.
    This is irrelevant. You quite clearly know very little about modern sensitising approaches or how the dyes are used or held in place in a specific emulsion. You are guessing off the basis of very limited experience with Erythrosine, aren't you? It has poor adsorption, thus that's why it's added early on.

  6. #106

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    For example ADOX's MCC/MCP uses 4 emulsion components
    True... this should be from industrial shortcomings. With only 3 components Ilford is able to nail straight curves for each grade from the right grain formulations in each component, but they started to make VC paper in the WWII times.


    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    The third emulsion component was a later innovation. Taking a single manufacturer's preferred & highly evolved design/ manufacturing approach as universally applicable doctrine is indicative of limited reading/ understanding of very complex technological changes.
    It is not a single manufacturer, it is the dominant bw photo paper manufacturer, by far. Ilford 3 components in one layer is the industrial standard. It is what allows total design control with the lowest cost. But this not that easy to do, so other small manufacturers may need other ways to get straight lines.




    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    You quite clearly know very little about modern sensitising approaches or how the dyes are used or held in place in a specific emulsion. You are guessing off the basis of very limited experience with Erythrosine, aren't you? It has poor adsorption, thus that's why it's added early on.

    I add Erythrosin in the addition, in that way it has x2 the effect, washing does not remove the effect. I'm cooking an VC emulsion (like Rollei Black Magic is) to print on glass. I've been reading a lot about sensitization, all I could, obviously manufacturers have industrial secrets that are not disclosed.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 8-Sep-2019 at 13:55.

  7. #107
    multi format
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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can
    Vive la révolution!
    You can say that again !

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can View Post
    Some post images
    Some critique

    Some hate everything
    Others Like! everything

    Some never post an image...never—
    Truth is an image
    Amen Brother!
    Last edited by jnantz; 8-Sep-2019 at 16:11.
    enjoy your coffee

  8. #108

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    I think AA would be first in line for today's films and papers. Spilt printing and selective contrast burning is mind boggling. AA had scripts he worked from. Every print was dodged and burned, no print exactly the same. Sure his development methods helped dramatically as well, to work what zones each part of the photo had.

    Closed loop VC systems, modern timers, papers. We've never had it so good. I think Ansel would be on board too.

    I will commit a bit of sacrilege here. Some of Ansel's greatest works came off a printing press. There's ultimate control.

    He thought the Zone VI coldlight with a photoeye was the greatest advance in modern history, I wonder what he would think of closed loop RGB LED light sources with VC controllers and f stop timer analyzers.

    I don't know how many emulsion layers are in Ilford and Foma papers but they are wonderful to work with.

    MHO FWIW
    Best Regards Mike

  9. #109

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    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Duolab123 View Post
    I think AA would be first in line for today's films and papers. Spilt printing...
    +1

    Before 1980s VC papers were not good enough, I guess.

  10. #110

    Re: I take back every bad word I have said about Kodak...

    I used to see Ansel around town quite a bit growing up in Monterey. If you look at his history, like being an early adopter of Polaroid and later one who learned the art of offset lithography better than most printers, you have to think that if he were to keep going, he would have been an early adopter of digital technologies like scanners and then Photoshop. It only makes sense. He was always one to push boundaries of available technologies. I can only think how intrigued he would have been to actually scan a negative and then manipulate it with a degree of repeatable precision he probably wished for but couldn't quite achieve. Drum scanners were making the scene in the late '70's but the early ones never even produced a digital file, they only scanned the film to be turned and imaged onto the plate making film, so four separate scans to print and a re-scan if your color balance was off. Pretty crude.

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