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Thread: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

  1. #31

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    The Nikkor 450 is an elephant compared to the Fuji 450C
    The Fuji 450 is very, very small, just 270grs, but it's f/12.5, one stop slower.


    There is also another ultra-light choice that it's not often considered, the Symmar 240 convertible to 420mm f/12. It is an excellent portraiture lens !!! Single coated, but once it is converted it only has two groups, little flare. Very cheap...

    70€, a bargain, IMHO this glass is superb for portraits:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And of course we have the cooke triple, the rear cell alone is not heavy and it is 476mm, but not that cheap...

  2. #32

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    If you need shorter focal length, add a close-up filter on your 450mm. Without enlarging, any would do, costing just more than a coke bottle bottom. Add a +1 and resulting focal length will be ca 320mm and increasing the f stop to 7.
    Regarding weight, I find the 450mm ok on my Wehman, but having trouble with the 20" / 508mm Ilex in #5 Ilex shutter at closest distance (1:2). A table would then be better than a tripod, adding the possibility to put extra weight on the bottom.

    Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

  3. #33
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Interesting. A cheapo diopter lens over a high end 450 lens. Why not just use a real Coke bottle for the entire lens?

  4. #34

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Interesting. A cheapo diopter lens over a high end 450 lens. Why not just use a real Coke bottle for the entire lens?
    Yes, why not? Just had a look at an exhibition where some landscapes I liked where done with a single element glass while most of the portraits where done with a Darlot no 4. And the toned cyanotypes had colors as nice as the best lith prints in Rudmans book. Take a look, he is on Flickr as Calceman

    Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

  5. #35

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    I personally wouldn't want any lens in a no.3 or heavier shutter on a very lightweight front standard like that at long extension, although I wouldn't hesitate to put a 450M on my own 8x10. The tiny tripod head amplifies any wicked voodoo vibrations. It all looks way way too flimsy for my idea of reliable 8x10 work.
    I'm with Drew on this. It may be good marketing to make 8x10 cameras lighter and lighter. But, I think some of those cameras have inherent limitations.

    A 450 M worked just fine with the 8x10 Deardorff that I had. But, I sold that camera in order to use longer focal lengths.

  6. #36

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Interesting. A cheapo diopter lens over a high end 450 lens. Why not just use a real Coke bottle for the entire lens?
    Drew, Nikon M 450 is not a high end lens,

    it is very, very good field (and portrait, tessar) lens that it's not as good as regular plasmats, but it saved a lot of weight and manufacturing cost (another thing is price) compared with a heavy plasmat, (see symmar 480mm !!!).

    C Pérez found for the M 300:

    f/11 48 48 48
    f/16 48 48 48
    f/22 54 54 54

    We know that this was not a lab test, it was a pick of the litter and all that, but you can rate your M if you want. The 3 values (center-mid-corner) are equal because with 4x5 he ony takes the center of the M-300 circle.


    Belive me, an old Symmar convertible and converted is able to equal that, with only slightly softer corners when converted, which won't allow translational movements without a performance loss, but the full lens would be similarly sharp as the M in the corners, single difference is coating, the M is MC, and the convertible symmar not.

    The converted lens with no rise-shift it is very able, with very acceptable corners if stopped at usual apertures, and with only two groups flare is really low for a single coated glass.

    Of the symmar convertibles I've the 150, two 210 (for an stereo project) and the 360, which is Technika stamped. I also use Nikon W 210 and 360, the 360 comes from heaven because is one of those samples that are an angry cat and not a hot dog, so I compared.

    I've some CMS 20 sheets shot with the old Symmar 150 I can show you, they are incredibly sharp, beyond any expectation.


    Ken Rockwell said that the sharpest lens he owns is a Symmar convertible: https://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/150.htm , and he also owns an M, which he qualifies as excellent.


    I concede that it is single coated, and that the conversion (a triplet, in fact) requires stopping a lot for a rise-shift, but this is not bottle glass, many expensive dogs around perform well worse.


    Would I prefer an M than a converted Symmar ? of course ! But I don't think that images would be much different !

  7. #37
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Pere - I think a lot of people would strongly disagree with your assessment about M lenses; and I, among others, do not find Perez's results in general either realistic or reliable in many cases. And as for Ken Rockwell, now there's a good laugh. The Nikkors M's were the apogee of tessar design, at least in LF. Recall what I said about microtanality and hue purity, and what Nikon also claims. It's true. The practical effect depends. One is limited by what hues a color film, and then a given color output media, can itself reproduce, which can be frustrating at times.In b&w work, it might take a high-end Apo enlarging lens and premium paper to bring out the nuances of microtanality; but it's there. Yes, tessars tend to be cheaper to manufacture than plasmats due to less elements, but that does not mean they were intended as lesser bargain products. Except for image circle size, they can have real advantages. If you want a super sharp 450, get a 4-element Apo Nikkor graphics lens. No plasmat comes close; but it would be bulky if you added a shutter. Total overkill.

  8. #38

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    And as for Ken Rockwell
    I've a deep respect for Ken Rockwell.

    Many of his writtings have a dose of irony and personal points of view, beyond that you may find a lot of wisdom in his reviews. I've learned a lot in his web site and I'm proud of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    do not find Perez's results in general either realistic or reliable in many cases.
    If you don't like the C Pérez ratings then you can review the rating made by Arne Croell for the Nikkor-M 300, page 22: https://www.arnecroell.com/lenstests.pdf

    Similar result.



    The M 450 f/9 is an excellent field lens, no doubt, also it is a very good general usage lens for 8x10, but you may guess that if an APO Symmar 480/8.4 weights 4 Lb this is for something.


    In the other side, IMHO what a LF photographer can do with an old Convertible Symmar is only limited by his mind and by his technique.

  9. #39
    Serious Amateur Photographer pepeguitarra's Avatar
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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    I think most of the LFF poster are highly educated or trained photographers, and those of us with lesser knowledge would benefit if they backup their comments with a photograph or two that they have taken. The illustration of those tips would greatly benefit the general audience. We all heard: One image is worth thousand words.
    "I have never in my life made music for money or fame. God walks out of the room when you are thinking about money." -- Quincy Jones

  10. #40

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    Re: Nikkor M 450 F9 - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by pepeguitarra View Post
    I think most of the LFF poster are highly educated or trained photographers, and those of us with lesser knowledge would benefit if they backup their comments with a photograph or two that they have taken.
    I am one of those with lesser knowledge and experience, only a learner, I started printing one year ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by pepeguitarra View Post
    The illustration of those tips would greatly benefit the general audience. We all heard: One image is worth thousand words.
    You have a M 450 , from what you post I learned that the M 450 has a harsh bokeh for me, it could be worse, but it is in the wrong side for my taste, I feel marked rings around defocus circles, I find it a bit distracting, but if you like it then no problem, this is only my taste:

    (Click to enlarge)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Let me show you the kind of bokeh I love, this is a Goerz Hypar (Hypar !) :



    Of course shot by a photographer that's way better than me, from whom I try to learn.


    ...and of course bokeh is YMMV.

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