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Thread: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

  1. #41

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    True, but let me mention an exception is Ansel Adams !

    He made "Monolith, the Face of Half Dome" with a crappy Adon, while he was illuminated with "holy divine inspiration" to invent the "sacred zone system".
    Co-invented!

  2. #42

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Co-invented!
    Archer joined later, he was not at Yosemite when the "divine ray" fell from sky, bounced in the half dome and ended in the Adon. (joking, of course)

  3. #43

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Archer joined later, he was not at Yosemite when the "divine ray" fell from sky, bounced in the half dome and ended in the Adon. (joking, of course)
    “...Archer collaborated with Ansel Adams to codify the Zone System, which is a photographic technique for determining optimal film exposure and development.[14] The technique is based on the late 19th century sensitometry studies of Hurter and Driffield, and provides photographers with a systematic method of precisely defining the relationship between the way they visualize the photographic subject and the final results. Although it originated with black-and-white sheet film, the Zone System is also applicable to roll film, both black-and-white and color, negative and reversal, and to digital photography. Archer and Adams formulated the system while teaching together at the Art Center School in Los Angeles.[15]

    Ansel Adams went out of his way to give Archer equal credit for the Zone System: "I take this opportunity to restate that the Zone System is not an invention of mine; it is a codification of the principles of sensitometry, worked out by Fred Archer and myself at the Art Center School in Los Angeles, around 1939-40."[16]”

    Wikipedia

  4. #44

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    it is a codification of the principles of sensitometry, worked out by Fred Archer and myself at the Art Center School in Los Angeles, around 1939-40."[16]”
    Bob I agree completely with wikipedia, but that "divine ray" descended from sky in 1927, it was April, AA was 14 years old, collaboration with Archer was 12 years later.

    "He changed to the red filter, with this dramatic result. He described this episode as his first visualization"

    http://anseladams.com/new-modern-rep...ace-half-dome/


    Well, let me recitify, with the Adon AA "invented" visualization, not the ZS. Visualization + Hurter_Driffield = ZS, I guess.

  5. #45

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sampson View Post
    Mr. Fromm's comments about the S.O.M. Berthiot lenses are quite interesting. I must admit that despite 38? years of experience with LF photography, amateur and professional, I have never seen or used any of their lenses. Of course a lot of that experience was pre-internet, and I'd never claim to be a lens expert, but it's nice to have my ignorance dispelled.... and to know that there are more, and different, good lenses out there to shoot with.
    Mark, marketing isn't everything but it counts for a lot. So does presence in the market. S.O.M. Berthiot has been part of the French military-industrial complex since 1912, stopped making civilian LF lenses (except process lenses) around 1951 and stopped making lenses for small format cameras in the early '60s. They never had much of a presence in the US. Although they were probably the most important French lens maker of their time their products were poorly documented, especially after WW II. Small wonder that few of us here are very aware of Berthiot's products.

    When I was chasing lenses seriously I put a lot of effort into learning which little-known lenses were good, easily/inexpensively put to use and priced interestingly lower than well-known equivalents. There aren't many such. Process lenses, Boyer Beryls (Dagors), f/14 Perigraphes and some ILex lenses and that's nearly it. There are good practical reasons why we love our Super Angulons and equivalent lenses from, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon and Rodenstock and don't look beyond them.

  6. #46

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Not sure if the full aperture of f6.8 for the Angulon is a great advantage. Yes it does make focusing easier due to the image being brighter on the GG, still that Angulon needs to be stopped down to f16 or smaller for image circle and image quality. If the f14 Perigraphes deliver good optical performance at f16 and smaller, that full aperture of f 6.8 of the Angulon might only be a modest advantage. Similar would apply to the wide angle Dagor with a full aperture of f8 / f9.

    During the early years for my view camera adventures, the wide angle lenses used were wide angle Dagors and wide field Ektars. At some point during the later years of 1980's, the Rodenstock Grandagons happened and never went back until more recently with the 165mm Angulon (while small, it has limitations and advantages like any other LF lens).

    These vintage wide angle lenses appear to have similar optical layout:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The f6.8 version of Perigraphes is a "Dagor" variant?

    As for install into a shutter, that same old thing about using a Sinar shutter does a nice job of taking care of that.

    Many years ago tried a Protar Ser. V, f16 on 8x10. Tiny lens in many ways yet it covers 8x10 stopped down to f32. Have that 8x10 color transparency some where. Optical performance, it's not a 155mm f6.8 Grandagon, but quite surprising given the physical size of the Protar Ser. V.


    Bernice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post

    Schneider's Angulon has only two advantages over Lacour-Berthiot's and S.O.M.-Berthiot's Ser. VIa Perigraphes. Angulons open wider and short ones are available in shutter. Ser. VIa Perigraphes open only to f/14 -- still faster than Protar Ser. Vs, which open to f/16 or f/18, depending on who made them -- and shorter ones can't be put in shutter.

    But the 90/6.8 Angulon covers 81 degreees while the 90/14 Perigraphe covers at least 105 degrees. Barely 4x5, more than 5x7.

    In today's market, 90/14 Perigraphes are fairly common and asking prices, especially considering what what they can do, are quite low.. More are offered on ebay.fr and ebay.de than on ebay.com.

  7. #47

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    S.O.M. Berthiot got into the cinema zoom lens battle with Angénieux. Over the course of time and all, Angénieux ended up being the French cinema zoom lens brand. About that point in time, Angénieux then had to contend with Cooke (UK) which also made excellent cinema zoom lenses.

    While Zeiss got a lot of notoriety for their lenses used in the Apollo space program, it was a Angénieux f0.95 lens that produced the video images of Neil Armstrong stepping on to the moon. The video quality is marginal due to the power allotted to that video camera of 2 watts. That was all they could afford for the video camera.
    http://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles...History-A4.pdf

    Space flight lenses operates in an extremely harsh environment. From being blasted by high energy particles to special lubricants that function in hard vacuum and a lot more.

    The third lesser known optical company that took part in the NASA space flight program of that era was Canon.


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    . S.O.M. Berthiot has been part of the French military-industrial complex since 1912, stopped making civilian LF lenses (except process lenses) around 1951 and stopped making lenses for small format cameras in the early '60s. They never had much of a presence in the US. Although they were probably the most important French lens maker of their time their products were poorly documented, especially after WW II. Small wonder that few of us here are very aware of Berthiot's products.

  8. #48

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Bernice, I'm not sure how Lacour-Berthiot slipped past Goerz' Dagor patents, but most of their Eurygraphes and both Perigraphes are double anastigmats with cells that contain three cemented elements. Very much like Dagors. Read my Berthiot article.

    Before WW I quite a few lens makers produced 6/2 double anastigmats. Fabre mentions many of them and there are discussions in the Bulletin de la Société Française de Photographie, of which many issues are available on-line. See the Berthiot articles references for links to it and to other French photographic journals.

    About S.O.M. Berthiot vs. Angénieux. Berthiot devoted most of their development effort from the mid-1920s-on to cine lenses, was in that market long before Angénieux was founded. Berthiot claims to have been the first to market with a cine camera zoom lens. As I said, Berthiot abandoned the civilian market in the mid-60s.

  9. #49
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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    ...There are good practical reasons why we love our Super Angulons and equivalent lenses from, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon and Rodenstock and don't look beyond them.
    Indeed there are; especially when making any significant enlargement.

    But as an overly-obvious observation, those of us who contact print or use alternative processes can be very happy with much older lenses that, though not up to modern "Stepford Lenses" standards of perfection, still provide the image quality we want, along with quirks and histories we enjoy.

    And of course, when you get into enjoying the various aberrations... it's all good!
    "I love my Verito lens, but I always have to sharpen everything in Photoshop..."

  10. #50
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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    When I wanted a good, cheap wide angle lens for the 8x10 format I went for a Wollensak Velostigmat Wide Angle Ser. III F9.5 61/4" Focus No. 284751 in a working Betax shutter. Cost exactly $100 on eBay. Lens is uncoated but more than plenty sharp for contact prints at f32 and f45. Imperfect memory hints that the optical design dates from 1909.
    Photography:first utterance. Sir John Herschel, 14 March 1839 at the Royal Society. "...Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation,..".

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