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Thread: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

  1. #11

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by neil poulsen View Post
    So, when did the wide-angle Dagor come about? That was considered a "decent" lens then, and I think now. I could find no mention of it in Kingslake.
    1920s, I b'lieve. Could be mistaken. CZJ produced them for a while after taking over Goerz. Goerz American made them until nearly, if not exactly to, the end. I have a 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor, not cataloged, one of 26 made by CZJ. Covers 2x3 but I prefer my 47/5.6 SA. Easier to focus and there's a center filter for it.

    Will, if you don't know what the list is, ask. Read Fabre. He wrote in French but you don't need to understand French to figure out the lenses.

  2. #12

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Thanks for the upload, Neil, that's exactly the kind of resource I was having trouble finding.

    For whoever interested, I read someone else's take on "affordable":
    A cup of coffee is cheap,
    a bag of groceries is reasonable,
    a car payment is affordable,
    a mortgage payment is expensive,
    and anything else is off the table.

  3. #13

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Dan, I found a very nice pdf of Traité encyclopédique de photographie via archive.org https://archive.org/details/traiteen...fabr_0/page/n6
    Your article is this one, I believe? http://www.galerie-photo.com/berthio...igmats-en.html

  4. #14

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Frostmill View Post
    Dan, I found a very nice pdf of Traité encyclopédique de photographie via archive.org https://archive.org/details/traiteen...fabr_0/page/n6
    Your article is this one, I believe? http://www.galerie-photo.com/berthio...igmats-en.html
    yes

    Approach Fabre through the list. You want to read all of the supplements that report on lenses. Some say nothing about lenses, the list gives a map to the ones that do.

  5. #15

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by neil poulsen View Post
    So, when did the wide-angle Dagor come about?

    "Zeiss made a wide angle f/9 Dagor (most Dagors are f/6.8) that covers 100 degrees at f/32 and there is an American Goerz Wideangle Dagor that covers 90 degrees at f/45"

    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...nses-wide.html

    The Zeiss 100º Dagor f/9 is in the 1933 catalog, page 28

    http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_3.html
    https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00607/00607.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by neil poulsen View Post
    That was considered a "decent" lens then, and I think now. I could find no mention of it in Kingslake.

    Neil, now we are rating "levels of decency" of glasses

    Let me say it in other words, Roussinov's theoric contribution in 1946 it was what paved the way to improve Biogon designs to allow larger coverages with acceptable fall-off, this set new standards, and following derivative designs ruled in that market segment since then.

  6. #16

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Papi, check before you post.

    First Biogon: https://books.google.com/books?id=OJ...biogon&f=false

    Second Biogon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss_Biogon

    The second is not an improved version of the first, it is entirely different.

  7. #17
    the Docter is in Arne Croell's Avatar
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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    Papi, check before you post.

    First Biogon: https://books.google.com/books?id=OJ...biogon&f=false

    Second Biogon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss_Biogon

    The second is not an improved version of the first, it is entirely different.
    What Dan said. Also note, the first Biogon type was only made in the 35mm focal length for Zeiss’ Contax rangefinder cameras. This design was never used for anything LF or even MF related.

  8. #18

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Biogon, Lamegon appeared about the same time in the world of lens design and yes, there was a patent-invention dispute over it.

    Papi, take the time to read this article written by Arne:
    https://www.arnecroell.com/czj.pdf

    Biogon designed by LUDWIG J. BERTELE, had a family relative, Wild 120° Super Avignon.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=7b...20lens&f=false

    Discussion about some of the work done by Russinov and Chakhverdov (Carl Zeiss Jena Lamegon) can be found here:
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

    LF lenses like Super Angulon, Grandagon, SW and SWD Fujinon, SW Nikkor and... came later.

    While there were "wide angle" lenses dating back to 1900 like the Goerz Hypergon, their optical performance is not comparable to these later wide angle designs. Goerz Wide angle Dagor and Schneider Angulon can be considered wide angle.. if about or just over 90 degrees angle of view is considered wide angle. Again, these do not have the optical performance of later wide angle designs.



    Bernice

  9. #19

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    While there were "wide angle" lenses dating back to 1900 like the Goerz Hypergon, their optical performance is not comparable to these later wide angle designs. Goerz Wide angle Dagor and Schneider Angulon can be considered wide angle.. if about or just over 90 degrees angle of view is considered wide angle. Again, these do not have the optical performance of later wide angle designs.



    Bernice
    Bernice, its time for you to buy and try a Perigraphe VIa. I suggest a number II, 90/14, they're relatively inexpensive and easy to find. And you should learn more about 4/4 double Gauss type wide angle lenses.

    If you read this discussion from the beginning you'll find several posts in which I directed the OP to sources of information about ancient w/a lenses. W/a lenses have been made since the 1860s. The big advances have been in maximum aperture and performance near wide open, not in coverage.

  10. #20

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    Re: When did decent wide angles show up? [lens history question]

    Previous discussion on LFF from 2008:
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...a%EFl-Rusinov)


    Bernice

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