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Thread: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

  1. #1

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    question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    I've been reviewing the scanning threads but have not found any posts from anyone who has actually done this--so if you have experience with it, I would appreciate hearing from you.

    From what I've found, the actual resolving power of the 8x10 film area guide lens on the Epson 4990/V7xx/V8xx scanners is only around 1,600-1,800, but the dual higher resolution lens used for 4x5 and smaller on the V7xx/V8xx modesl is about 2,300. The higher rez lens only scans 5.9" wide, however.

    A few have suggested the higher rez lens could be used to scan two sections of an 8x10 and then the two scans could be stitched together in PS to achieve a 2,300 8x10 scan.

    I have also shot quite a few 5x8 and 4x10 images--two of each on one 8x10 sheet of film--and theoretically could scan these with the higher rez lens in one pass if it's possible to rig up a holder to position the film for the higher rez lens. Similarly, I could do a 60% crop of an 8x10 in one pass (5.9/9.8).

    Anybody have experience using the higher rez lens with an 8x10 sheet of film? If so, would you please share your process? Is it even possible to "trick" the scanner into scanning part of an 8x10 sheet of film using the higher rez lens? Doug indicates in this post that it is possible simply to select the high rez lens with the software, but that still leaves open how to get the correct calibration: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1487198

    I have an older 4990 that only has the lower rez lens. I'm wondering if it would be worth it to upgrade to the V700 or later model. I would only want to upgrade if I can use the higher rez lens for scanning 8x10 in sections (assuming stitching).

    Thanks!
    Michael
    Last edited by Michael Roberts; 21-Aug-2019 at 12:42.

  2. #2

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    I haven't tried to stitch 8 x 10 but I have scanned 5 x 7 in the high res area of the 750 (Wet mounted on the glass carrier) so 5 x 8 will work just fine.

    IIRC in VueScan you can select the area that you want to scan by drawing a window around it or moving crop lines so you shouldn't have any problem just scanning part of the negative. If I'm remembering correctly

    I've been using an IQsmart 2 for a few years and I've sort of forgotten some of the details of using VueScan but it's a nice package IMHO.

  3. #3

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Hi Jim,
    Thanks for your response. Is there a glass carrier for 5x7? That's news to me. Is this an Epson carrier? BetterScanning? Some other brand?

    Ahh...I see that BetterScanning has a 5x7 available.

    Still looking for 8x10 though....

  4. #4

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    The carrier is what Epson calls a fluid mounting station. It came with the 750 but not the 700. It sits on top of a plastic base with a grid on it and you use the grid to position the neg and then lift the carrier off the base and put it on the scanner bed. Munting on the carrier is pretty easy - I timed it and I could get a good wet mount of 4 x 5 or 5 x 7 in 23 seconds. 8 x 10 would be a bit trickier as you'd have to align it so part of the width hung over the edge of the carrier on the right with the left edge aligned with the marks for the left side of the 5.9" area, then scan and remount it with the other edge hanging out and the right side aligned with the marks for the right side (or vice versa of course) When I was doing 8 x 10 I just layed it flat on the scanner glass because even at 1800 effective dpi you could still make prints of pretty large size. I actually made some canvas prints that were about 40" by 56" and mounted them as a canvas wrap - came out pretty nicely.

  5. #5

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Adding to what Jim pointed...


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Roberts View Post
    the Epson 4990/V7xx/V8xx scanners is only around 1,600-1,800, but the dual higher resolution lens used for 4x5 and smaller is about 2,300.
    with the LR lens it performs 1700 for the vertical axis and 2300 for the horizontal axis. With the HR lens it is 2300 for the Y and 2900 for X (2900! amazing for a 5.9" scanning width).

    Low res lens is focused o the bed glass itself, the hr lens if focused some mm higher:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ("sharpness" vs height)




    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Roberts View Post
    Is it even possible to "trick" the scanner into scanning part of an 8x10 sheet of film using the higher rez lens?
    Some made 5x7" DIY holders, for 4x10" a possibility I'd consider is taking an spare 4x5 holder, sawing the plastic separation between the two frames and then adding a metallic frame (made with two overlaping frames) that would take the 410 and it would fit in the 5" wide hole.

    A 8x10 holder would ber a bit more coplex as it should shift to take the crops... it can be done I guess.

    ...but for 810 I don't see much the need to improve the scanning with the high res lens, the LR lens delivers insane 300MPix effective!

    This shows how it is in a 6m print: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...5/32535835184/

    To me the area guide allows perfect 2m prints, you always can wet mount on bed glass, and many drum scanning services even don't offer scanning beyond 2000 dpi for 8x10. A way to get all possible quality for a monster print is an optical enlargement, scanning all that quality is a challenge, a way it would be building a very sound dslr scanner and stitching around 50 shots.



    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Roberts View Post
    I'm wondering if it would be worth it to upgrade to the V700 or later model.

    Upgrade to V800, sell the 4990 for some $150. The V800 has LED illumination so there is no heating time delay for pre-scanning.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 13-Aug-2019 at 04:13.

  6. #6

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Andrada View Post
    The carrier is what Epson calls a fluid mounting station. It came with the 750 but not the 700. It sits on top of a plastic base with a grid on it and you use the grid to position the neg and then lift the carrier off the base and put it on the scanner bed. Munting on the carrier is pretty easy - I timed it and I could get a good wet mount of 4 x 5 or 5 x 7 in 23 seconds. 8 x 10 would be a bit trickier as you'd have to align it so part of the width hung over the edge of the carrier on the right with the left edge aligned with the marks for the left side of the 5.9" area, then scan and remount it with the other edge hanging out and the right side aligned with the marks for the right side (or vice versa of course) When I was doing 8 x 10 I just layed it flat on the scanner glass because even at 1800 effective dpi you could still make prints of pretty large size. I actually made some canvas prints that were about 40" by 56" and mounted them as a canvas wrap - came out pretty nicely.
    Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the information. I've done wet mounting on a Howtek 4500, but not on an Epson using the Epson station. For context, I'm printing up to 71x120" from drum scans. I don't expect to print that big from an Epson scan, my thought is simply that if I am going to go to the trouble of scanning at home with an Epson, then why not wring the best resolution I can out of an Epson. Mine is an extreme position, I understand that.

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Pere,
    Thanks for your reply, it's very helpful.

    A question: with my 4990, the 8x10 film area guide has the long dimension consistent with the long dimension of the scanner, but my 4x5 Epson holder has the 5" dimension at 90 degrees. If I am understanding your x/y axis info correctly, this means the 10" length of the 8x10 sheet is scanned effectively at 2300 and for 4x5, the 5" length is scanned effectively (with the higher resolution lens) at 2300 also. Is this correct?

  8. #8

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Roberts View Post
    this means the 10" length of the 8x10 sheet is scanned effectively at 2300 and for 4x5, the 5" length is scanned effectively (with the higher resolution lens) at 2300 also. Is this correct?

    The counter...

    The 10" of the 8x10 has effective 1700dpi, and the 8" is 2200dpi.

    For 4x5" (sheet rotated 90) the 4" is 2300dpi effective, and the 5" is 2900dpi.

    While the Epson has a sound optics (it resolves 18400 pixels, [8" x 2300dpi] in the scanning width) the drive train looks not as good and in the motion direction we have a loss.

  9. #9

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post

    ...but for 810 I don't see much the need to improve the scanning with the high res lens, the LR lens delivers insane 300MPix effective!

    This shows how it is in a 6m print: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...5/32535835184/

    To me the area guide allows perfect 2m prints, you always can wet mount on bed glass, and many drum scanning services even don't offer scanning beyond 2000 dpi for 8x10. A way to get all possible quality for a monster print is an optical enlargement, scanning all that quality is a challenge, a way it would be building a very sound dslr scanner and stitching around 50 shots.
    Pere,
    This bell seems extraordinarily sharp for a 6m print! I guess my question is: at what viewing distance does this represent?

    For example, I am using an Excel spreadsheet developed by another forum member that calculates a sharp viewing distance of 1.1' (13in) for a 120"L print from an 8x10 when scanned at 3200 and a viewing distance of 2.2' (26in) for a 120"L print from an 8x10 scanned at 1600.

    So, for your hypothetical 6m print with the enlarged bell, what is the assumed viewing distance? Just curious, I have no problems agreeing that this would look sharp at a normal viewing distance for a 6m print (>3' for certain).

    Unlike most folks (it seems--I agree it is highly unusual to request a drum scan of an 8x10 at >2000--I've spent the last two years trying to do this), I am very interested in how close I can walk up to a mural sized print and it look sharp. I can get the sharp viewing distance down to about 6" with an 8x10 drum scan at 3200--but only for a print that's 60" wide; for 120" wide I'm stuck with a 13" viewing distance at best. [don't worry, I know this is crazy]

  10. #10

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    Re: question about using the 4x5 Epson scanner lens to scan 5.9" wide and stitch 8x10

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Roberts View Post
    Howtek 4500, I'm printing up to 71x120" from drum scans. I don't expect to print that big from an Epson scan
    hmmmm.... this depends. Most of the times the Epson is not the limiting factor in the LF image quality. While there is no doubt that the howtek is a way superior system this may not have an effect with many LF shots. The Epson resolves 65 Lp/mm in the transversal direction and 45 lp/mm in the motion direction, at those cycles/mm the LF lens-film combination has also contrast extintion for usual shooting conditions.


    Years ago I made a test, I downloaded crops from the Collaborative Large Format Scanner Comparison (https://www.largeformatphotography.i...an-comparison/) and I just edited the crops in PS to see the real effect after each crop was optimized.

    Pro scanners make a very good digital image optimization, the Epsons are not Pro and you have to do it later, but with a few clicks an LF scan from an Epson is amazingly close to the Howtek:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...5/28420386682/

    There is no secret, it's about downloading the crops from that "side by side" and sharpening to optimum, and adjusting curves to match.

    If it was a CMS20 film shot, with the lens focused at infinite for a very distant subject (no dof required), with a very sharp lens at optimal aperture, with a contrasty texture, and with no wind... then probably we would see some difference if the drum scans at 4000 dpi or beyond.

    Of course for 35mm roll film it's easy to see a difference, if it is a very steady shot.

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