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Thread: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Test

  1. #21

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTang View Post
    I always understood that Apo Lanthars were color corrected Heliars … so the soft -sharp focus thing makes sense.. I've found shooting B&W with my heliars, the light/dark transitions unlike other lenses in their smoothness.. even when stopped down.. so it's not surprising that they are highly sought after (if one shoots color..if not, then it's for the 'look what I got' factor - as a Heliar will do just the same with B&W)

    I remember when I first started selling at camera shows years and years ago, the Japanese buyers would come around and the only English they knew was 'apo lanthar'.. never had one.. but right then I thought...hmmmm… what's the deal?
    Apo Lanthar sounds more German then English.

  2. #22

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTang View Post
    I always understood that Apo Lanthars were color corrected Heliars … so the soft -sharp focus thing makes sense.. I've found shooting B&W with my heliars, the light/dark transitions unlike other lenses in their smoothness.. even when stopped down.. so it's not surprising that they are highly sought after (if one shoots color..if not, then it's for the 'look what I got' factor - as a Heliar will do just the same with B&W)

    I remember when I first started selling at camera shows years and years ago, the Japanese buyers would come around and the only English they knew was 'apo lanthar'.. never had one.. but right then I thought...hmmmm… what's the deal?
    The old Brooks Camera main store in SF used to have a week long camera show every year in the store and reps from all of the camera and lens companies would work the show for them. Every day before the show opened to the public a few bus loads of Japanese would be admitted. Most did not speak English and none of us spoke Japanese. Once the doors opened they would make a beeline to the counters with a European product. They would point to specific Leicas, Rolleis or Blads and hold up wads of $100.00s. European product, new and used poured out at those sales!

  3. #23

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTang View Post
    , the Japanese buyers would come around and the only English they knew was 'apo lanthar'.. never had one.. but right then I thought...hmmmm… what's the deal?

    Japanese artists have a dozen adjectives to describe bokeh, some subtleties are very important for some but they are irrelevant for other people...

    You tie a japanese artist to a chair in front of an image with bad bokeh and he has a 95% chance to start having seizures in just 10min. Seriously, in their aesthetic subculture bokeh nature is often very important.

  4. #24
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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Thank you Rick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    You tie a japanese artist to a chair in front of an image with bad bokeh and he has a 95% chance to start having seizures in just 10min. Seriously, in their aesthetic subculture bokeh nature is often very important.
    Let me respond to this once more, because I think it needs addressing.

    I will simply post a screenshot from a beautiful animated series called "Violet Evergarden." The OOF highlights are characterized by what some would call "bad" bokeh. This series was made by a Japanese studio (sadly, the one recently burned down in an arson attack). Opinions are varied and nuanced, when it comes to OOF rendering.

    Bryan | Blog | YouTube | Instagram
    All comments and thoughtful critique welcome

  5. #25

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The OOF highlights are characterized by what some would call "bad" bokeh.
    We have to consider that "bad bokeh" it is not the same than "bad aesthetics". One may want triotar soap "bad bokeh", it can be at the same time "great aesthetics" and "bad bokeh".


    Bokeh is "smothness in the OOF", it is not related to the degree of defocus but in how smooth is that defocus. Bad bokeh is "bad smoothness" so it tells a harsh nature in the OOF.

    I one likes smoothness or harshness in the OOF this is a YMMV, "bad bokeh" should be translated to "low smoothness" in the OOF.


    Of course many portrait photographers want smoothness in the background to bring attention on the subject, as harshness in the OOF can be distracting. But one may want a "bad bokeh" for a great image, like with Aero Ektars.



    This is (Tommy) Toshihiro Oshima by Urs Bernhard, I guess Urs made the kind of shot that it would please Tommy:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/ursber...00377/sizes/z/
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	oshima.JPG 
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    https://www.flickr.com/photos/tommyo...n/photostream/

    Tommy uses both good and bad bokeh for great images, it's not if bokeh (smoothness) is good or bad (high or low), it's the way he uses softness or harshness for a sound aesthetics. I try to learn specially from this photographer but of course also from other, me I like how some japanese photographers use defocus, I find they have a very refined sense of defocus nature.

    It is also true that, in "general", japanese artists have a "general" preference for softness in the OOF, with many subtleties, but this is not a rule for all.

    In particular the Heliars were/are very valued in Japan, and this is because they render a good/high smoothness in the OOF, or say good/high bokeh.


    Here Ken Rockwell explains it very well what is "good" and "bad" bokeh:

    https://kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm

    This is "Bad Bokeh", so a harsh OOF, that can be good or bad for a photographer:




    The APO Lanthar has first class good bokeh, not a better or worse lens than an AE, because good bokeh can also be bad for the image we want, YMMV.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 31-Jul-2019 at 17:12. Reason: spelling

  6. #26

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Opinions are varied and nuanced, when it comes to OOF rendering.
    Yes - and as your example illustrates, anyone who demands compliance with a singular type of out-of-focus rendering is pretty ignorant of photographic or cinematographic history. For that matter, it used to be the case that the flaring of certain anamorphic lenses was not seen as a positive part of their aesthetic appeal, whereas it's now seen as key feature - to the extent you can rent blue flare filters...

  7. #27

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    Re: Linhof Apo-Lanthar 210mm - Duftige Schärfe "fluffy sharpness" - Open Aperture Tes

    Quote Originally Posted by interneg View Post
    anyone who demands compliance with a singular type of out-of-focus rendering is pretty ignorant of photographic or cinematographic history.
    Interneg, of course, every lens nature can be exploited in a situation, harsh and soft OOF both have their own usage for great aesthetics. What we debate is how things are named. We name "Bad Bokeh" to harshness in the OOF and "Good Bokeh" fo softness in the OOF, if Bad/Good Bokeh is Bad/Good or Good/Bad for our image this is YMMV, isn't it.

    is that naming wrong? Is Ken Rockwell wrong in that?

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