Premium for black Copal shutter?

[CreationBear]

I'm wondering: given a choice between two lenses with functioning Copal shutters--one in a "modern," black shutter, the other with a silver shutter ring--would you be willing to pay a bit more for the former? Or is it basically a "push" in your eyes, especially given that the older one could have been babied whilst the newer one could have been rode hard and put up wet?

Any insights appreciated!

[Dan Fromm]

With used goods, ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I don’t know if there are internal differences. I’ve always assumed not. If that’s true I’d look at the wear on the shutter and lens as a proxy for how it was cared for. But if you may resell it I do think the perception is that the black ones are better, and therefore worth more.

[CreationBear]

ya pays ya money.

Ha, no doubt, especially since my skills presently wouldn't justify owning, say, one of the "new run" Sironar-S's out there. The perceived value of black Copal's is something to keep in mind as well--though of course there are items where it's the older version that's more valued.

[pepeguitarra]

Every time I have bought a lens with a black shutter (latest model), I have had problems. I usually sent all my shutters to be CLA after they arrive. The all-black shutters have been the only ones that I have had to send for a second CLA in less than a year (two of them, except the Copal 3, which is a blessing). Coincidence? bad luck? Not sure, just facts.

[Bernice Loui]

Newer is not better...

Black shutter speed dial Copal shutters began with Nikkor. Eventually Copal made all their shutters with the black shutter speed dial. The Chrome shutter speed dial Copal shutters are in ways nicer as the chrome holds up better where the black is anodizing.

Zero functional difference between Chrome or Black shutter speed dial.

The non-round Iris on Copal shutters can be a disadvantage at large apertures with some lenses.

The lesser appreciated shutter is the old Compound that uses an air cylinder to control shutter speed. These are very simply, reliable, durable and have a nice round iris. The later Compur shutter with the squarish styling is another lesser appreciated shutter. These do not appear to have the problems of the earlier Compur shutter problems and they also have a nice round iris. Prontor Pro while fancy does not have a round iris. Seiko is similar in many ways to the Copal shutter, Other older are Ilex, Alphax, Rapax, Betax and... tend to have round iris.



Bernice

[Tin Can]

When you get a good one, never sell it.

I find the smaller the black Copal the better.

If I like the lens and it has a bad shutter I use a Sinar or Packard shutter.

[Bernice Loui]

Four of the lenses here were purchased new in a black Copal shutter during the late 90's. All have been good so far and to date. Others Copals are the older Chrome dial variety which have been quite problem free, but they do die from time to time. Service wise, it does appear the black shutter speed dial Copals tend to have more problems than the earlier chrome dial shutters for some reason.


Speaking of Copal shutters, the Sinar Copal shutter has been remarkably tough, reliable, accurate over decades of service and a LOT of film. Had one serviced by Sinar some time in the early 90's and has been used a lot with zero problems after that Sinar facility servicing.


Bernice

Every time I have bought a lens with a black shutter (latest model), I have had problems. I usually sent all my shutters to be CLA after they arrive. The all-black shutters have been the only ones that I have had to send for a second CLA in less than a year (two of them, except the Copal 3, which is a blessing). Coincidence? bad luck? Not sure, just facts.

[CreationBear]

A very useful précis, Bernice, thanks! Any thoughts on Copal press shutters? I can see how they might be handy for some kinds of conditions I encounter (e.g. running water, etc.) but there seems to enough sample variation I'm not sure I'd want to take them own. (PG's experience with black Copals would probably send me running to Best Buy...)

[Bernice Loui]

No longer own any Copal press shutters. In the past, they have been good. Do think their iris location is different than the standard Copal making them not always directly interchangeable with the standard Copal, check this.

Prontor also made a press shutter about the same era which was used a LOT on Polaroid MP series cameras. These are often found with no iris as they were intended to be used with a lens mounted on the front of the shutter. Copal press shutters were also common on Polaroid MP series camera.


Bernice

A very useful précis, Bernice, thanks! Any thoughts on Copal press shutters? I can see how they might be handy for some kinds of conditions I encounter (e.g. running water, etc.) but there seems to enough sample variation I'm not sure I'd want to take them own. (PG's experience with black Copals would probably send me running to Best Buy...)