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Thread: Best enlarging lenses

  1. #41

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Curious that a sheet of film would "pop" in a glass carrier. Never in all the years of printing on a Durst 138 condenser enlarger with glass carriers has this happened. Problems with dust_absolutely, problems with newton rings_absolutely if anti-newton ring glass was not used, negative popping_never.

    What I'll say about Durst 138 & 184 glass carriers for sheet film, they work, work really well if in good condition and properly set up. These Durst carriers essentially flatten any sheet of film put into them and holds then flat, no ifs, buts or questions. The routine would be to work like the dickens to remove all possible dust from All the surfaces involved (film, glass carrier), the set it up in the 138. Once it is set up that sheet of film could stay in the 138 for hours, projection illumination on for many minutes at a time to set up, make test prints and more. If that negative popped or shifted or other mechanical issues with the film carrier or enlarger, there would be extreme dis-content and dis-satisfaction with the whole system. This rarely happened_if ever. This why I'm so fond of the Durst 138, system and it's glass film carrier system. The thing simply works and is stable.

    Used non-glass carriers in the 138, Bessler and other enlargers, the film DOES pop causing great grief resulting in writing them off as usable.

    This is also a question of printing style, printer folks might not want to work for hours on a single sheet of film trying to achieve the print result in mind.


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Forgot to mention that I once took a workshop in which George Tice was a guest lecturer. He did some enlarging demos. Remember that he did not like to use glass carriers for various reasons. He said that the negative would "pop" in a glassless carrier after being heated up by the enlarger lamp, so he would turn on the enlarger and wait maybe 30 seconds before checking the focus. When making the enlargement, he would turn on the enlarger and hold a cardboard card under the lens for 30 seconds before actually exposing the paper. He did two prints, one with and one without letting the negative pop before exposing the enlarging paper. Side by side there was a difference, all be it minimal as my memory serves me. He equated the difference as being equal to the difference between using a very good enlarging lens and an excellent one.

  2. #42

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    If making prints on B&W paper, absolute highest performance enlarger lens is not that important as the print paper simply cannot present in the finished print all the information projected on to it. This is why enlarging lens manufactures do not put extreme optical performance into the majority of their enlarging lenses. Color balance is a whole different aspect of enlarger lens performance.

    If projecting high res film to high res film, that is an entirely different kettle of image. This is where lenses like a APO EL Nikkor can and will make a difference over lesser enlarger lenses. This also places extreme demands on the projection system's precision, alignment, illumination quality and more.

    Example that comes to mind is the enlargement system used for cold war aero-recon film that was done in 5"x5" rolls then projected to 10"x10" roll film or 2x. Absolute image quality was a must. This resulted in lenses and projection systems and films that were very high performance but highly specialized.

    Know image quality alone does not define a good-expressive print as this is just one aspect of what makes a "Fine" artistic expressive print.



    Bernice

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can View Post
    If B&W paper is lower resolution than some film, what final product could be better?

    Emulsion on glass?

  3. #43

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Curious that a sheet of film would "pop" in a glass carrier.

    Bernice
    The enlarger Tice was using had a glassless negative carrier.

    On my Durst enlarger I use a 4x5 carrier with anti-Newton ring glass. Brand of carrier I don't know but is stamped with the word "JAPAN", so I don't think that it is a Durst carrier. Also the quality of the carrier is better than my glassless OEM Durst carriers. Brand of the Anti Newton ring glass also I don't know, but it comes in a jet-pak envelope with the word "GLASS" stamped on it and the numbers "473427".

  4. #44

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Glass carrier alone means much of zero as the actual performance of the specific glass film carrier can vary from horrid to excellent with many factors involved.

    Consider the Hasselblad Lunar cameras that were made with a Reseau plate, or register glass in front of the film to assure a degree of film flatness. The temperature changes film in camera are forced to endure under these non-Earthy conditions are extreme, yet the folks at NASA and others involved decided to put film between glass and film carrier to force the film to be "flat".

    https://www.history.nasa.gov/apollo_photo.html


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    The enlarger Tice was using had a glassless negative carrier.

    On my Durst enlarger I use a 4x5 carrier with anti-Newton ring glass. Brand of carrier I don't know but is stamped with the word "JAPAN", so I don't think that it is a Durst carrier. Also the quality of the carrier is better than my glassless OEM Durst carriers. Brand of the Anti Newton ring glass also I don't know, but it comes in a jet-pak envelope with the word "GLASS" stamped on it and the numbers "473427".

  5. #45
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Thank you Bernice

    Occasionally I do make enlarged internegs for 'negative prints'

    My lenses are good enough


    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post


    Example that comes to mind is the enlargement system used for cold war aero-recon film that was done in 5"x5" rolls then projected to 10"x10" roll film or 2x. Absolute image quality was a must. This resulted in lenses and projection systems and films that were very high performance but highly specialized.

    Bernice
    sin eater

  6. #46
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Those were exciting days here on Earth

    I clearly remember Sputnik and how my 5 grade schools adapted or not. New Math, old math, new, old, new, I got pissed and just gave the answer, like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Glass carrier alone means much of zero as the actual performance of the specific glass film carrier can vary from horrid to excellent with many factors involved.

    Consider the Hasselblad Lunar cameras that were made with a Reseau plate, or register glass in front of the film to assure a degree of film flatness. The temperature changes film in camera are forced to endure under these non-Earthy conditions are extreme, yet the folks at NASA and others involved decided to put film between glass and film carrier to force the film to be "flat".

    https://www.history.nasa.gov/apollo_photo.html


    Bernice
    sin eater

  7. #47

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Glass carrier alone means much of zero as the actual performance of the specific glass film carrier can vary from horrid to excellent with many factors involved.

    Consider the Hasselblad Lunar cameras that were made with a Reseau plate, or register glass in front of the film to assure a degree of film flatness. The temperature changes film in camera are forced to endure under these non-Earthy conditions are extreme, yet the folks at NASA and others involved decided to put film between glass and film carrier to force the film to be "flat".

    https://www.history.nasa.gov/apollo_photo.html


    Bernice
    Reseau plates were used in lots of cameras from 35mm through 810. The plates held film flat as you mentioned but the crosses on the plate were used for photogrammetry to measure points in space through non contact measurement. This was used in place of cruder photogrammetric targets that had to be placed on the subject to be measured.
    I sold Rollei 6008, 3003 and 810 photogrammetric cameras to NASA to, for instance, measure precisely where the Space Shuttle touched down on the runway on their return from space (6008 version). To AirBus to accurately measure the completed parts like wings, tails, fuselage, etc. that were all made in different factories in different countries and were shipped for final assembly at other factories (810 version).
    Also Linhof 45 photogrammetric cameras. One use for this camera were the first accurate measurements of Ítzi, the Iceman, once he had been placed in his controlled case.

    As for just a plain glass plate in the film plane that was done on the Rollei 2.8F as an option. It was also used on Hasselblad Polaroid Pack backs to adjust the focus since pack film was positioned behind the film plan of the Hasselblad.
    Both of these uses predated the Hasselblad used in space.
    Interestingly the Rollei 6008 cameras and the 45 Linhof Aero Technika EL cameras used on the Space Shuttle did not use glass plates or reseau plates.

  8. #48

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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can View Post
    Those were exciting days here on Earth

    I clearly remember Sputnik and how my 5 grade schools adapted or not. New Math, old math, new, old, new, I got pissed and just gave the answer, like it or not.
    At least in 5th grade you experienced Sputnik.

    When I was in 6th grade someone read a science fiction book for a book report and our teacher, Ms Vetter, then spent the entire afternoon explaining to us why it is impossible to ever put a satellite in orbit or for humans to ever go into space!
    She left quite an impression on us in 1953!

  9. #49
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Best enlarging lenses

    I don't buy some of this. Some of those early Apollo moon trip shots might have been extremely historically valuable, but weren't necessarily technically ideal. It was a learning curve. Every informed astrophotographer using film today probably uses distinctly tighter flatness tolerances. ... Making quality internegs is impossible without a precision glass carrier, glass both sides! For one thing, you can't control tonality even doo-doo without having an aligned contrast mask. Old style interneg and duping sheet films are no longer made, and even when they were, masking was nearly always necessary for ideal results. What commercial labs did, I could care less. If I wanted so-so quality, I could have contracted with any number of big labs back then, instead of, "If you want to do it right, do it yourself". Nor do I give a hoot how Tice or Ansel or Gomer Pyle did it back in the Pleistocene. And right now I'm waiting for the first real rains to clear up the air and temper the humidity a bit so I can do another round of 8x10 internegs. If I don't use AN glass both sides in the carrier, I'd be wasting every bit of that time and money. However, all this applies to ENLARGED internegs. In such cases, I generally use a 240 Apo Nikkor process lens for 4x5 and smaller originals projected onto 8x10 film. It's better for dupe and interneg purposes than ordinary enlarging lenses, even apo ones. Most of my dupe and interneg work, however, is done 8x10 contact. I have just one 4x5 enlarged to 8x10 subject in this upcoming interneg project.

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