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Thread: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

  1. #11

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Quote Originally Posted by DDrake View Post
    As I mentioned on another thread, I've never used a view camera before--part of my motivation for building one was to learn how to use it. So no doubt I've made errors in design that I wouldn't have with more experience.
    I wouldn't call any of your design choices errors, but once you have some experience behind you, I would not be surprised if you decide to undertake a Mk II version (or if you're like me, Mk III, IV, and V versions as well!) and make a few changes / improvements each time.

    In fact, if you're not careful, tinkering with cameras might become another hobby for you ... lol!

    Anyway, carry on, finish what you've started, and reap the reward you will have earned as the result of your efforts.

  2. #12
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Perhaps look at Peter Gowland cameras. He made a lot of low production innovative cameras.

    https://www.petergowland.com/gowlandflex-cameras
    Tin Can

  3. #13

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    @ Randy Moe: Thanks for the link. I've seen a few images of Gowland's cameras, but haven't seen that website. I'm especially interested in Gowland's friction drive focusing--have heard it described as coin-in-a-slot. The drive on my camera is just a bit of silicone tube over an aluminum shaft, with an interference fit against the square rail--so far, it seems to work fine, and is actually the bit I'm most pleased with.

    @ Audii: After your comment about the rear standard offset, I got to looking at the front standard offset. Seems like as designed, the minimum distance between film and lens board is 132 mm, meaning I won't be able to focus any lens shorter than 135 mm at infinity (if I understand these things correctly). Fortunately, because I'm still working out the kinks of getting a good 3D print from polycarbonate filament, the front frame isn't finished yet. A slight change allows the front standard to be reversed, and the minimum distance goes to 62 mm.

    I expect you're right about Mk II, III, IV, etc. I'm already thinking the front standard can be simplified with a dual knob that locks tilt and rise/fall independently (like Chamonix and Intrepid), as well as the tapered bellows you suggest.

  4. #14

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Quote Originally Posted by DDrake View Post
    @ Randy Moe: Thanks for the link. I've seen a few images of Gowland's cameras, but haven't seen that website. I'm especially interested in Gowland's friction drive focusing--have heard it described as coin-in-a-slot. The drive on my camera is just a bit of silicone tube over an aluminum shaft, with an interference fit against the square rail--so far, it seems to work fine, and is actually the bit I'm most pleased with.
    FYI, as another data point, the Galvin 45 -- a compact, lightweight 4x5 camera similar in design to the Gowland, as well as yours -- uses a gear-and-a-rack for fine focusing. Except for the ground glass and bellows, the camera's parts are all made from aluminum and mine, IIRC, weighs a bit over 3 lbs, which was quite light in its day.

    Of course, its rigidity does suffer somewhat due to its lightweight design and construction, especially when it's used with longer focal length lenses, but a recessed lens board was available and I was easily able to use mine with lenses as short as 75 mm without any issues. (I also have a 2x3 version and was able to use lenses as short as 50 mm with it, again with no issues.)

    @ Audii: After your comment about the rear standard offset, I got to looking at the front standard offset. Seems like as designed, the minimum distance between film and lens board is 132 mm, meaning I won't be able to focus any lens shorter than 135 mm at infinity (if I understand these things correctly). Fortunately, because I'm still working out the kinks of getting a good 3D print from polycarbonate filament, the front frame isn't finished yet. A slight change allows the front standard to be reversed, and the minimum distance goes to 62 mm.

    I expect you're right about Mk II, III, IV, etc. I'm already thinking the front standard can be simplified with a dual knob that locks tilt and rise/fall independently (like Chamonix and Intrepid), as well as the tapered bellows you suggest.
    Tinkering with cameras is a disease and a virulent one at that, so it's not surprising that you're showing the early symptoms of it.

  5. #15

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    132 mm from film plane to lens board should work with a 121mm f/8 Super-Angulon for example – it needs 134.2 mm for infinity focus. Modern wide angle designs (big lenses with "hourglass" profile) generally have a bit longer flange focal distance than their focal length.

    Is the bellows going to be interchangeable or fixed to the camera? If fixed, then the full size front standard would allow you to make recessed lens boards for wide angle lenses. Rectangular bellows tend to bunch up into a fairly rigid block near their minimum extension and will limit possible movements. The solution is either a recessed lens board or swapping to a bag bellows (if interchangeable). On the other hand, rectangular bellows can have less tendency to sag at long extensions and are simpler to make (all folds and stiffeners are the same).

    The rear standard offset to allow inserting a holder when rear tilt is used makes sense to me. I have a Linhof Kardan Color 45S which doesn't have this provision and it can range from a small annoyance (regular film holders, slight tilt) to making certain things impossible (horizontal shots with holders that have protruding parts – Polaroid 545 and the like). Linhof's solution was a short spacer/extension block for the back which is now hard to find.

    With some older/simpler monorail systems, getting minimum extension for very wide lenses involves moving both standards to one side of the rail clamp/tripod connection assembly. To allow this, you need the rail clamp and/or the standards to be easily removed from the rail. I'll attach a random snap where you can see my Linhof in this configuration. Also note how the bellows is bunched up into a solid block – while infinity focus is possible with a 90mm lens, flat board and the standard rectangular bellows, it really needs a bag bellows for any useful movements.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #16

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Quote Originally Posted by ottluuk View Post
    Rectangular bellows tend to bunch up into a fairly rigid block near their minimum extension and will limit possible movements. The solution is either a recessed lens board or swapping to a bag bellows (if interchangeable). On the other hand, rectangular bellows can have less tendency to sag at long extensions and are simpler to make (all folds and stiffeners are the same).
    FYI, a tapered bellows can often split the difference between a bag bellows and a regular, pleated bellows, because if the taper is large enough, it will allow the smaller front part of the bellows to partially collapse into the larger opening of the back part of the bellows, thereby reducing the depth of the fully compressed bellows.

  7. #17

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    After (finally) getting an okay print of the front frame in polycarbonate (first image), I did a test assembly today of most of the major elements (minus lens/lens board and back):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Noted issues:

    Bellows shown is an early iteration, and is being remade with somewhat different materials. This one is a little too thick, and about 1/3 heavier than I'd like. Bellows are interchangeable, but using #4 screws through the corners is proving fiddly--not the sort of thing I think I want to mess with in the field. So I need to come up with a more convenient way of anchoring bellows frames.

    I'm reprinting the front and rear frames using a different design, as there's still some problems with warping and print quality. Not crazy about the glossy appearance of printed polycarbonate, so I'll likely knock it down with some sanding. Some post-print milling is necessary to true up rabbits that accept lens board and back, and the pockets for magnets that attach the back.

    One or both of the blocks that mount the standards to the rail need reprinting or more work with a file as the standards are slightly misaligned along the roll axis, even when locked down. Since I printed these, I've remodeled them to include zero indicators for swing and shift, so reprinting may be the best option.

    Lock knobs on the standards need reprinting with a taller boss on the underside--current knobs can't be locked down fully without hitting pivot screw heads.

    Off-the-shelf lock knobs for shift/swing could be better--bigger diameter and more clearance from standard base would be nice. Should print instead.

    The good stuff:

    With lighter bellows, looks like I'll be right around 1000 grams with back, not including lens and board.

    With added resistance of bellows, standards, and frames, friction drive focus still operates without slipping, even with fairly extreme movements applied.

    Rigidity seems okay for as light as the construction is. Actually, the camera has a little more heft than I expected.

    Removal and reinstallation of standards with bellows from rail is very fast--at least in principle, all the movements (except focus, obviously) stay locked down and zeroed.

    Replacement of off-the-shelf lock levers with DIY threaded knobs saved at least 24 grams!

    I'll post more pics with the new bellows and back and lens mounted, probably in a few days. With luck, I'll have a version up and taking actual pictures by the end of the month.

  8. #18

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Beta build, with Fujinon 135mm f/5.6 attached. Still some tweaks to go (such as attaching the thinner, lighter bellows I just made) but this is the gist. Pretty cool to focus an image on the ground glass for the first time.

    Lessons learned: learning curve is steep with 3D printing filaments that are tough and resistant to sun and heat (such as polycarbonate). Warping is a problem printing larger components. Wood may be a better choice for standard frames, reserving 3D printed plastic for small parts such as knobs and brackets.

    Block connecting rail to tripod is a weak point. Needs rethinking.

    Friction drive slips when bellows are compressed. Thinner bellows may fix this, plus adding a little glue or tape to secure silicone tube to shaft.

    There's room to simplify the standards, including use of Chamonix/Intrepid style dual locking knobs. Can't find off-the-shelf version, but think I have a design that can be made with a little (inexpensive) machining.

    Making the front standard smaller and tapering the bellows now seem like an obvious move.

    I've ordered a Fresnel to brighten the ground glass.

    Regardless, I'm pretty pleased with this version, and looking forward to taking a few photos with it before moving on to building Mk. II.
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  9. #19
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Terrific progress!
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

  10. #20

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    Re: Work in progress: Ultralight 4X5 build, with Carbon Fiber + 3D printed plastic

    Quote Originally Posted by DDrake
    Regardless, I'm pretty pleased with this version, and looking forward to taking a few photos with it before moving on to building Mk. II.
    And you should be pleased with your results, as I'll bet far more than half of the camera projects that are started are never finished or even completed to the point they can take a photo ... congratulations!

    Before you start on your Mk. II version, do be sure to give this camera a thorough workout, so you can uncover all of its strengths and weaknesses, as well as your personal likes and dislikes.

    This way, you can address all of these at once, rather than force yourself into Mk. III or IV or V versions as you iterate your way to the final design by addressing issues one at at time ... btdt, I'm afraid.

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