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Thread: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

  1. #21

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim V View Post
    Thanks.

    To determine a good starting point for testing, if Bergger's recommended time for PMK 1:1:100 is 18min and ...
    Sorry it’s 1+2+100 and I wouldn’t go shorter. I’ve had no remarkable problems with this combination and it’s rather longer than shorter, or warmer, e.g. 22° C.

    BTW, there are some very nice examples of this film in the thread: ‘what did you compose at water’s edge’. So, to state that this film is difficult and that formerly Bergger was better is not justified imo.

  2. #22

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Good spotting, I got PMK dilutions mixed up with Pyrocat-HD standard dilution.

    Yes, I'm sure it's a quality product. After all, that's why I'm interested in it as an alternative to other current emulsions. My only wish is that there was more information about how it performs in different developers.

    Quote Originally Posted by otto.f View Post
    Sorry it’s 1+2+100 and I wouldn’t go shorter. I’ve had no remarkable problems with this combination and it’s rather longer than shorter, or warmer, e.g. 22° C.

    BTW, there are some very nice examples of this film in the thread: ‘what did you compose at water’s edge’. So, to state that this film is difficult and that formerly Bergger was better is not justified imo.

  3. #23

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim V View Post
    Thanks for your reply. Do you rate it at EI200, or slower?

    I could cope with 200 effective ISO but slower would be a killer. Like you, I’d rather try CHS100ii or stick to FP4+. The Adox looks great though, and I’m itching to try it and the Pancro but want a good starting point for developing with Pyrocat first.
    I haven't done proper film tests but yes I tend to get better results at 200. Moreso in large format than the smaller ones. At some point I'd like to do actual film tests but I'm not quite there yet. I will say even though the negatives tend to towards thin, I do get some nice results both in the darkroom and scanning. In the darkroom my last few prints used a #3 contrast filter and looked pretty good.

    I feel like Pancro has flat contrast and lots of latitude which maybe can also explain the thinner negatives. That would arguably be a good thing but without film tests I'm just speculating and comparing the results I've gotten. It does have very nice tone - the negatives just don't behave like what I'm used to with every other film

    Pancro 400 is what caused me to start reading Beyond the Zone System because it's been so tough to nail down. Would be interesting to see it's film curve relative to others - that might explain a lot I'm thinking.

  4. #24

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Looking at the curves it seems that it has a longer toe than say HP5+, but also a longer straight line that builds up to a higher optical density. Different developers for each company running the tests, mind you. I've been thinking a lot about this film and wonder if it is indeed best exposed at 200ISO to get that extra shadow detail. I think if doing that it would be a film more suited to wet printing, as the optical density might end up being too high for most scanners save the absolute best to extract the best from it. D-Max is always an issue with CCD scanners like Imacon Flextight / Hasselblad.

    Quote Originally Posted by m00dawg View Post
    Would be interesting to see it's film curve relative to others - that might explain a lot I'm thinking.
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    Last edited by Tim V; 5-Apr-2019 at 21:56.

  5. #25

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Hmm that's interesting. It's marketed as I recall for having lots of latitude due to the dual emulsions and a long straight line seems to indicate that. Likewise I've seen it be sort of flat, although when I crank up the contrast (in darkroom or scans) it can be rather lovely. In 35mm though I felt like some scenes did have a sort of punchy look. In 4x5 though it seems kinda flat to me. Might be great for portraits (though I'd prefer less grain in that case). In fact I've seen some samples (I forget where) and the tones were quite lovely.

    Since it's on the flatter side, it almost makes me wonder if it's a film that should be pushed / expansion. If it has a long straight line and a large dynamic range, adding more contrast that way could make sense maybe? Just speculating.

    I certainly wouldn't pull / contract it since it already seems potentially flat for some of the scenes I've shot it in. Which I suppose is a good thing but it's still been a tough film to wrangle as a result. I wish Bergger had more info for scenarios like these - their documentation is rather sparse compared to say Ilford or Kodak film docs.

  6. #26

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Maybe that’s why their recommended development times seem really long? 18mins for PMK mixed 1:2:100 @20 degrees seems overkill compared to any other film I’ve ever used... longer times to push the contrast up, perhaps? Also makes me think again that the claim it’s a 400iso is optimistic. I’ve found a few 8x10” sheets from my first test box. It’s just over one year old and hasn’t been refrigerated but I’ll expose two sheets at ei200, then develop first sheet as recommended in PMK for 400iso, and second sheet in Pyrocat. Wish me luck...
    Last edited by Tim V; 8-Apr-2019 at 03:17.

  7. #27
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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    i got a box of berger 400 i tried in TMax developer. the negs were so thin rated at 200 iso i had to use it at 25 iso to render anything printable.

    just for giggles i used some dektol. rated at 400, my negatives were now way too dense and reducing the time wasnt a very good fix either. instead im now diluting dektol 1:4 and getting very nice results.

  8. #28

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by m00dawg View Post
    It's marketed as I recall for having lots of latitude due to the dual emulsions
    So could any current 400 speed film. In fact, some probably have 3 or more. A few years ago, there was talk of the possibility of taking Agfapan 400's formulation and re-working it into a more Tri-X alike film - the curve shape of the Bergger certainly has some commonality with TX (not TXP) - I wonder if Bergger took up an offer (from Innoviscoat?) to put this potential film in production.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim V View Post
    as the optical density might end up being too high for most scanners save the absolute best to extract the best from it. D-Max is always an issue with CCD scanners like Imacon Flextight / Hasselblad.
    Not been a real problem in my experience, at least with the later Imacons & Hasselblads. Getting an overly dense negative for them is really very challenging, though it does make more demands of the operator.

  9. #29

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Quick follow up:

    I shot two 8x10" sheets of Bergger today and doubled up with Ilford HP5+. I shot the Bergger at EI200 and the Ilford at EI320, although a small fluctuation in light (I was outdoors) might have equalised things somewhat, although no more than a third of a stop.

    I developed in trays with Pyrocat-HD, 1:1:100. Single sheets at a time in 2L of soup. 14mins @20 degrees C. for HP5+ and 18mins @20 degrees C for Bergger. This is the recommended time for HP5+ for Pyrocat, which is also the recommended time for PMK that I have standardised on. Because of that, I used the recommended PMK time for the Bergger. Not scientific, but should be a good start...

    First impressions just looking at wet negatives...

    It's clear that the HP5+ has more punch; shadow detail and density in the highlights. The Bergger looks to have a high amount of base fog, which I've heard other people mention before and also noticed on the few 120 rolls I shot in the past. I've never compared directly to other film bases, but doing this today really surprised me. It's really pronounced!

    The Bergger looks ok, but clearly less detail in the darks and I bet it will print with less contrast... Not sure how I feel about this, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding, i.e. when I make some contact prints tomorrow. I'll report back...

    I've got two more sheets left, so will do another side by side comparison and this time develop in PMK.

    One note, while the Bergger is well within expiry date it has not been stored refrigerated since I bought it almost 14 months ago. I've used other film stored unrefrigerated a lot longer than this before with perfect results, but I guess it's possible this fact might skew the test a little...

  10. #30

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    Re: Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim V View Post
    Quick follow up:

    I shot two 8x10" sheets of Bergger today and doubled up with Ilford HP5+. I shot the Bergger at EI200 and the Ilford at EI320, although a small fluctuation in light (I was outdoors) might have equalised things somewhat, although no more than a third of a stop.

    I developed in trays with Pyrocat-HD, 1:1:100. Single sheets at a time in 2L of soup. 14mins @20 degrees C. for HP5+ and 18mins @20 degrees C for Bergger. This is the recommended time for HP5+ for Pyrocat, which is also the recommended time for PMK that I have standardised on. Because of that, I used the recommended PMK time for the Bergger. Not scientific, but should be a good start...

    First impressions just looking at wet negatives...

    It's clear that the HP5+ has more punch; shadow detail and density in the highlights. The Bergger looks to have a high amount of base fog, which I've heard other people mention before and also noticed on the few 120 rolls I shot in the past. I've never compared directly to other film bases, but doing this today really surprised me. It's really pronounced!

    The Bergger looks ok, but clearly less detail in the darks and I bet it will print with less contrast... Not sure how I feel about this, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding, i.e. when I make some contact prints tomorrow. I'll report back...

    I've got two more sheets left, so will do another side by side comparison and this time develop in PMK.

    One note, while the Bergger is well within expiry date it has not been stored refrigerated since I bought it almost 14 months ago. I've used other film stored unrefrigerated a lot longer than this before with perfect results, but I guess it's possible this fact might skew the test a little...
    Are you sure it is not underexposed? Maybe rating it lower will help?
    More than a decade ago Bergger was a film that would not push at all. It would go a bit and just sit there, building base fog with no real expansion. Did not matter how you exposed it, expansion development was not in the cards.

    As you write, you are just starting with it. Let us know after a couple of full boxes how it goes.
    ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.

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