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Thread: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

  1. #31
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Quote Originally Posted by rpagliari View Post
    I haven't had the opportunity of experimenting with 4x5 HP5+ and Tmax100, as I haven't received my camera yet.
    You don't have enough experience to make a decision. You'll need to put some film through your camera and your process before you can possibly know enough to make a decision.

    That said, you've got to start somewhere. So pick one and start. You can always change later.

    It's not like your first 5x4 film is going to make an award-winning 50x40 print. Even if most of us think that's going to be the case. I know I did. Every shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpagliari View Post
    So I'd like to ask if anybody has experience with these two films. The reason is that I like a lot the rendering of HP5+, it's my favorite film with 35mm and 120.
    Yeah, well, small format isn't large format. This is sorta like trying to compare trumpet with clarinet. Surprisingly little of your years of clarinet will apply to trumpet. Your ability to read music, some ability to play with others and understand a director. But you'll find that LF doesn't play like SF. Just doesn't. Which is again why you need to burn a lot of film learning your new LF camera and your process.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpagliari View Post
    However, tmax is known for being much cleaner when it comes to film grain (at least on a scanned negative), but I've seen comments about the fact that in large format there isn't much gain in using iso 100 vs 400.
    LF typically involves less enlargement than smaller formats. So the graininess doesn't get enlarged so much, and is therefore less visible. Doesn't mean the graininess isn't there. Just that it's not so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpagliari View Post
    As a side note, I'm planning to scan my negatives with a commercial Epson scanner. I have a 550 but might upgrade to the 800 series.
    I see from many of the above replies that the discussion has ranged into "the grain question". Don't hurt me for pointing out some stuff that to me is (now after years of work) completely obvious to me but which many people skip over for whatever reasons. For completeness.

    First, film is three dimensional. Second, actual silver grains are really small, as in microscope required. When you use said microscope to look through the film in a single spot, what you'll see in highlight areas (higher density) is a silver grain at one depth in the emulsion tends to "overlap" with other silver grains at other depths in the emulsion. They hardly ever "register" well, so the resulting set of overlapping silver grains is almost always bigger and more oddly shaped than any one of the components. This thing, is called a "grain clump". If you can see it in your image, it's a grain clump, not an actual silver grain. Because no enlarger or scanner can image down to individual silver grains.

    Third, your scanner resolution is fixed over your scan (that is, set for the entire image before the scan begins). In the case of a drum scanner, scanning aperture is also set for the entire scan. That is, the scan properties are all deterministic and do not vary across the scan area.

    Forth, the system of film grain clumps that make up the image are completely stochastic. This applies to grain clump size, which can cover a huge range of sizes. It also applies to grain clump locations.

    Fifth, numbers 3 and 4 together guarantee that you're scanner resolutions and aperture size will never register well with your grain clumps. It's just not going to happen. So you need to disabuse yourself of the whole idea that there's a "correct" scanning resolution or drum scan aperture. Some are better than others for certain purposes, and this will vary from image to image. That's just the laws of physics talking to ya.

    Sixth, remember that Callier Effect applies to scanning just like it does to optical enlarging. Light is light. Light (as used in photography anyway) does not penetrate solid silver. So it bounces off in another direction. More density -> more light scatter. More light scatter -> more artifacts. Again, just the laws of physics talking to ya.

    Finally, remember the old adage: Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. This is true of darkroom printing, and it's just as true for scanning.

    Add it all up together and it comes down to just this: use just as much film density as required to do the job, and no more.

    It took me a decade to learn that stuff and hook it together to make logical sense in my head. And when I put it to practice I could make beautiful scanned huge prints of the rare (very) exposures that merited being printed large. So I know it works.

    Do with it what you will.

    Bruce Watson

  2. #32
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Bruce gives great advice!
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

  3. #33

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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
    guarantee that you're scanner resolutions and aperture size will never register well with your grain clumps.
    I fully agree with the rest, but my view is that this statement can be debated.

    Dealing with the film grain structure in the hybrid process it's an interesting matter.

    IMHO this is not often considered in LF, because grain is usually the least concern in LF, but with roll film it's a different war ...if wanting to exploit grain structure aesthetics.

  4. #34
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    "can be debated" and "usefully be debated" aren't the same thing.
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

  5. #35

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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    "can be debated" and "usefully be debated" aren't the same thing.
    Peter, it can be usefully debated.

    Personally, I've been long time (and I'm) interested in film grain structure, and I've been following how several artisits exploit film grain structure in the aesthetics and trying to learn, and also I've been trying to find how film grain can be optimally processed in the hybrid.

    I guess this should be debated in the lounge because it's not much about LF, but mostly about roll film.

    Anyway let me point we need some 2500dpi effective to depict big grains, this is to have some 9 effective pixels (3x3) for a "dot" to record "big grain structure" in a film, but we need a top notch scan to depict well the "small" grains in the structure of the same film.

    In optical prints many times we only perceive the "big grain", of course depending on the many factors we all know (film/developer/erlargement).

    IMHO by recording well big grains we get a substantial share of the film footprint, but not all. Of course YMMV.
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 17-Mar-2019 at 15:52. Reason: spelling

  6. #36
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Don't confuse all this grain talk with acutance. Either TMax film will hold far more detail than HP5. But each of these has its own look.

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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Here we have an interesting reading about the influence of wet mounting and light source collimation in the scanned grain.

    It explains why some (Nikon/Imacon) scanners delivered "more grain".

    https://web.archive.org/web/20150530...es/basics.html
    https://wetmounting.com/Pages/basics.html

    The wet topic is also covered here in page 20: http://www.tmax100.com/photo/pdf/film.pdf

  8. #38

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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    We have silver-halide crystals before development and metallic silver clumps after, we may call grain to both, but they are different things.

    My view is that photographers and industry always call film grain to the metallic silver particles we have after development:

    Attachment 188842

    "Fine grain" or "coarse grain" always refer to that... Me, I use "silver halide crystals" (or simply crystals) to refrer the "fundamental particles" in the emulsion (a suspension in fact) before development, but when I learn DIY emulsion recipes for my dry plates I find some "grain" word usage with the crystals.

    It has to be noted that good technical literature always use crystal for silver halide particles and never grain, for example you will find epitaxial or tabular crystal growth depending on the pAg factor (silver concentration in the addition), a technician-scientist will never say grain for that, IMHO.

    It has to be noted that with processing the "fundamental particles" (halide crystals) disapear. The shape of the clump depends on solvent effect, infectious development etc, but the individual crystal shapes are not there anymore, in fact the crystals disolve during development or fixing.

    My view is that we should say crystals for silver-halide crystals, as we always are in a technical context when mentioning that then better if we say the real concept, and it's better to leave the grain word for the metallic silver that is mentioned everywhere in general film photography for developed film.


    Anyway when scanning we cannot go wrong with semantics, crystals are destroyed in the processing. ...so for sure we speak about the metallic clumps.
    Whatever they are called, the small particles, either before or after development, are too small for scanners to truly capture. Grain does not really clump together, it's just that there is more than one layer (about 50) of grains in the emulsion, so the exposed grains we see are stacked on top of each other more or less. If anyone was a technician/scientist, it was Mees, and he called both the silver halide crystals and the metallic strands grain. Here is a picture from his Dry Plates to Ektachrome book, showing one layer (Lippmann) of grains before and after development.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I agree with you though, that different names should be used for undeveloped and developed grains. And from a practical standpoint, the individual grains don't have to be resolved to obtain a high-quality, very large print. A scan is a sample, so there will always be some losses compared to the original.

  9. #39

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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    Quote Originally Posted by mmerig View Post
    are too small for scanners to truly capture ------------- showing one layer (Lippmann) of grains before and after development.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is not regular film, lippmann plates have extremly fine grains of about 0.01 to 0.04 micrometres (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippmann_plate), while regular film may deliver 30 micrometer grains !!!!!

    Grain can be well scanned, depending on grain size and scanning you may place 9 pixels on a single grain.


    mmerig, see instead images of HP5+ grains, not Lippmann plates... Not the same 0.01 to 0.04 micrometres than 10 to 30 micrometres. Regular developed film has grains x1000 larger than the ones you mentioned.


    Film fine grain takes one pixel in the around 1600dpi to 2500dpi range, so fine grains do require a good scanner, but larger grains are easier to see.

    It is also true that films have also a share of extremly small grains that work in the shoulder of the curve, but what we call grain, it can be scanned.


    These are hp5 grains (metallic clumps):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://photo.fleurey.com/blog/pushi...p5-to-1600-iso
    https://web.archive.org/web/20180217...p5-to-1600-iso
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 9-Apr-2019 at 00:47. Reason: HP5 samples added

  10. #40
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Grain on large format (scanned negative): hp5 plus vs tmax 100

    What most people see as "grain," especially with higher-speed films, is simply grain aliasing caused by the scanner and grain interaction. What one "prefers" in terms of the look of the film / "grain" is completely up to the individual.
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