Pre-soak and final wash in Jobo expert drums

[Tim V]

Hi all,

I'm about to order a CPP-3 plus expert drums to process 8x10" and 4x5" film.

Currently, I use PMK but by popular account, I might want to switch to Pyrocat-HD? Or at least consider dividing the development to 2x 1000ml volumes. But I digress...

My main question pertains to the use of expert drums, particularly with regards to how people pre-soak the film before development, then wash the film after fixing.

For the pre-soak, I'm wondering if people simply put the drum on the roller base and pour in the water. Let it rotate inside the drum as with any of the other subsequent chemicals, drain then repeat, before finally moving on to the developing stage?

For the final wash, I'm assuming that people do a cursory wash with a couple of cycles of fresh water, then remove film and put it in a tray or archival washer? Is it possible to properly clean the film inside an expert drum?

Lastly, for pyro developers such as PMK and Pyrocat-HD, do people still recommend using the slowest rotation speed?

Any other tips would be appreciated, I'm just trying to educate myself so when the gear arrives I feel confident I know where to start.

Thanks,

Tim

[Vaughn]

I use Pyrocat HD in Expert drums (3005 and 3006). The 3006 with six 5x7s I do with two batches of Pyrocat.

I am using a motor base -- my pre-rince is usually two batches of water for 5 minutes each. I wash in the drum (3 or 4 five-minute fills), but finish in trays.

[Fred L]

When I used PMK, I would presoak in the drum on the roller base. Same with the wash, x number of fill, roll and dumps.

[cowanw]

I on the other hand soak in the drum standing in the sink for 5 minutes while I get everything ready and rinse after pouring out the fixer to storage bottles with two fills in the standing position. Then open with the drum almost full (much easier) and into the print /film washer. I use a Beseler type roller.

[Mfagan]

I pre-soak on the roller—running same speed as I will use for processing. i start off at a slower speed for a few revs to make sure that the drum and lid are coaxial. Otherwise the lid might loosen and let light in and chemical out (experience the hard way). I rinse using the roller as well to avoid the risk of scratches from handling. I figure the fewer times I handle a neg, the lower probability of scratching. Rinsing for me is three one-minute changes of tap water ((correct temperature), one minute perma wash, three more one-minute tap water, finish with one minute steam distilled water with a few drops of photoflow. Never tested effectiveness of rinse — maybe it’s excessive or insufficient, but it works for me.

[Pere Casals]

pre-soak the film

Most modern films (kodak, ilford, fuji) do not need pre-soak at all, many decades ago it was different. Professional film processors does not pre-soak, including BW, C-41, E-6, not matering if it was rotary or roller transport or any other.

Film stock for hollywood movies has a pre-bath to remove the protective remjet layer that prevents scratches from movie camera harsh film transport.

Modern film includes wetting agents intended to provide an even development that are removed by the pre-soak, so if you anyway pre-soak at least do it a long enough time because, if not, pre-soaking is what it would lead to an uneven development. See ilford datasheet.

Anyway do a side by side test and see. You may have to correct a bit development time depending on how you process.

Lastly, for pyro developers such as PMK and Pyrocat-HD, do people still recommend using the slowest rotation speed?

Yes, if not you will have more stain in the fog+base, I guess this comes from air (oxygen) mixed in the developer because excessive rotary speed.

In general Pyrogallol or Pyrocatechin based developers should not be used with rotary, if doing it then use a low speed to take less air. A silicone based defoamer (2 parts per million) may also help, because it also prevents a bit the formation of small air bubbles inside the liquid.

Some stain developers Rollo-Pyro and 510-Pyro are suitable for rotary, Rollo-Pyro is PMK with ascorbic acid that I'd say it works as an antioxydiant.

Washing

Put twice the water than the developer volume, rotate 3 min, dump. Repeat from 3 to 6 cycles. To me 3 cycles are enough if you dump well all water. Last wash can be done with distilled water + photoflo. I make 3 cycles + another one with minimal amount of distilled+photoFlo.

Any other tips

If you use an alkaline rapid fixer (TF-4 or equivalent) then there is no reason to use an acid stop bath. When acid fixers were used the acid stop bath was to protect acid fixer from alkaline contamination/damage. Use plain water instead.

[Tin Can]

Glad I read this last post.

I don't use Rotary but do use gas burst.

Seems I need to move to N2 gas burst from compressed room air if I want success with Pyro.

One day

[Pere Casals]

Seems I need to move to N2 gas burst from compressed room air if I want success with Pyro.

Randy, you may use a pyro formula that is suitable for rotary: http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/mixing.html

Those containing an antioxydant can be rotated or air-bursted. Pyrocat-PC contains: Ascorbic acid 4.0g / 1L.

[Lachlan 717]

Pre-soak - 2 minutes/Empty/3 minutes.

I do this as I believe that there is a significant possibility of uneven development on the (long) 7x17 sheets if dry. The pre-soak is a slight buffer to the ingress of the developer.

Developed on “F” speed for all chemicals.

Photoflo doesn’t go near my tanks for fear of residue. I hang the sheet post wash (washed in tanks with continuous flow tap water) and use an atomising spray to cover the negs with the Photo Flo solution.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've been processing 4x5 and 8x10 with Jobo Expert drums in a cpp-2 for 20 years. For bw film, I never use a pre-soak. Jobo USA did not say that one was needed for any quality reasons. They recommended a 5 minute pre-soak, as their tests showed that this gave development times close to what film manufacturers recommended for inversion development, but the recommendation was only meant to help one figure out the proper development time. I figure out my own development times, and so a pre-soak wastes time and tempered water to no good effect. I do use a pre-soak for processes, such as E6, were the developing temp is significantly higher than ambient. The pre-soak gets the film and drum up to temp, in that case. I wash film in the drum, using frequent changes of water, much like Ilford's recommended method. I see no reason to use a development regime that requires very long and wasteful washing sequences.