Toyo 45AII for wide-angle use?

[B.S.Kumar]

Toyo used to make a 30mm recessed board - I sold one recently. The flange focal distance of the 47mm f/5.6 Super Angulon XL is ~59mm. So, using this lens on a 30mm recessed board means the front standard is ~90mm away from the ground glass. You would probably get about 10mm rise/fall. But as Steve notes, setting the lens controls would be challenging.

Kumar

[Huub]

In the past i have used a 58mm SA XL on a Toyo 45A in a 12mm recessed lensboard. I added some curved cable release extention thingy so i was able change the cable release easely. The bellows was quite cramped, but i was able to use the full 12mm rise and fall the image circle of this lens allows. Luckely the Toyo boards have more room for setting the controls of the lens, so it was workable.

[rpagliari]

Thanks a lot for the useful information!

With 75mm and 90mm lenses, how much room should I expect for rise and fall movements?

Thank you again,

[Huub]

With a possible 41mm front rise and some more when using indirect rise, it will depend on the image circle of the lens.

[Hmuessig]

I've used Toyo Field Cameras since the late 70's and am on my second - a 45AX. We did a huge amount of HABS/HAER work and other architectural photography. Love the Toyo Field because of its size and ruggedness.

That said the camera, bellows, and lens boards have their limitations for wide-angle lenses below 90 mm. The bellows is flexible to a point -- see below -- and the recessed lens boards are a challenge.

Toyo originally made a 24.8 mm recessed board but this has been discontinued for some time (late 90's maybe??). The currently available recessed board is 12.5 mm. I have a mid '90's catalogue that shows both. The deeper boards are available on eBay and elsewhere as are the newer, shallower boards. There are also clones of the 12.5 mm board.

The challenge with the recessed boards is that it can be difficult to see and set the aperture on a Copal 0 shutter, particularly if the front element is large and especially when you have a center filter on. My 47XL is relatively easy to use on the 12mm board and nearly impossible on the deeper board. The press focus is equally a challenge and the shutter speed ring can be if your fingers are large. I've ended up with a couple of little pokers that I can use to adjust the aperture and a small mirror and flashlight so I can see the scale (bifocals don't help!!). Some folks say that silver reflective tape on the sides of the recessed board helps . . .

All that said, here is the kind of movement I can get with the Toyo and various lenses.

90mm f8 Nikkor (235mm circle) on a 12mm recessed board. 23mm rise (the maximum - though Toyo says 20.5..) with the bed in normal configuration, about 40mm indirectly with base tilts. The lens still has a bit more circle. This lens is difficult to use on the deeper board and the faster 90s are nearly impossible.

65mm f4.5 Grandagon (170mm circle) on a 24mm recessed board. 23mm rise with the bed normal and maybe 36mm indirectly with base tilts -- well beyond the lens' coverage. This lens and a 75mm f6.8 Grandagon are just fine on the deeper boards.

47mm f5.6 Super Angulon XL (166mm circle) on a 12mm recessed board. 15 mm rise . . which exceeds the coverage. Note that in portrait move the bed of the Toyo needs to be dropped or it will be in the field of view. Again, on a deeper board with the center filter this lens is difficult to use.

To get to these the bellows is scrunched to its limit; never had a problem however with that.

The design of the Toyo limits the shifts more significantly than rise and fall. 7mm left or right is not much for architectural work but you can use indirect movements to get more.

We started using a Sinar F2 and a bag bellows long ago and that makes the movements easy . . . though that camera "feels" no way as rigid as the Toyo that has never been a problem. (If you want rigid - and weight - the P's are SOLID!)

Cheers, hope this helps.

[scm]

Another wide angle solution that I hadn't thought until just now of is to have "Universal" bellows made. I had the camera below a while back, and while I didn't have these bellows made, someone did, and I would bet that any of the usual bellow makers would have no problem with just leaving the first several rows of pleats out.

[rpagliari]

I'm into landscape and architectural photography, and have found a Toyo 45a at a reasonable price. What are, realistically speaking, the movements I can get with wide angle lenses, such as 75mm, 58mm and 47mm?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hi!

I assume that you are referring to those lenses:

any classical 75 mm wide-angle lens covering ~ 105° - image circle 196 mm
Schneider-Kreuznach 58 XL covering 110° - image circle 166 mm
Schneider-Kreuznach 47 XL covering 120° - image circle 166 mm

Image size for the 4x5" format is 120mm x 94mm.

75 / 105° 58 / 110° 47 / 120°
focal length (mm) 75 58 47
image circle (mm) @f/22 196 166 166
total angle (degrees) 105 110 120

format X (mm) image width X (mm) 94 94 94
format Y (mm) image height Y (mm) 120 120 120

shift / X +- (mm) 30.5 10.3 10.3
shift / Y +- (mm) 26 8.4 8.4

As a conclusion, 58 XL and 47 XL lenses are intended for medium format use (6x9 cm, 6x12 cm..) ; they formally cover the 4x5" format @zero shift, but will allow very little movements.

[Oren Grad]

Emmanuel, the main issue here isn't lens coverage, it's what are the physical limitations of the Toyo 45A camera with short focal lengths - what's the minimum achievable flange distance, and to what extent does bellows compression limit range of movements. IIRC Mamiya America Corporation used to say that the shortest the 45A series could accept was a 58XL on a recessed board. But best to get some input from users of the camera who have actually worked with ultrawides.

[Audii-Dudii]

Emmanuel, the main issue here isn't lens coverage, it's what are the physical limitations of the Toyo 45A camera with short focal lengths - what's the minimum achievable flange distance, and to what extent does bellows compression limit range of movements. IIRC Mamiya America Corporation used to say that the shortest the 45A series could accept was a 58XL on a recessed board. But best to get some input from users of the camera who have actually worked with ultrawides.

With regard to "minimum achievable flange distance," don't forget that Toyo once sold a 24 mm recessed lens board for this camera in addition to the 12 mm recessed lens board, so there is potentially some wiggle room available here as regards the minimum acceptable FFD measurement.

Alas, Toyo long ago discontinued sales of the 24 mm recessed lens board, so the only source for them today is the secondhand market and while they do turn up now and then, they have become fairly scarce.

Of course, if you're handy and have the appropriate resources to call upon, it's possible to modify the 12 mm recessed to increase the amount of its recess or even to fabricate a complete recessed lens board from scratch.