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Thread: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

  1. #31

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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Camera scanning is a viable option, but it has limitations. As Peter explained above, many people already have the needed gear. Peter built a very cool semi-automatic system that is described in the long "DSLR scanning" thread. I built a cheap manual solution and described it here: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ample-approach I'm scanning 4x5 negatives at 2,666 ppi, but the same concept would work just fine for 8x10 (albeit with a lot more pictures). You could shoot at 2,000 ppi and still have a very detailed file.

    Aligning everything is actually simple. I use the same trick as darkroom workers use to align their enlargers (a mirror). In my setup I'm making 12 frames for a 4x5 negative, and getting those 2,666 ppi using an APS-C Fuji camera with no anti-aliasing filter. The final resolution is more than adequate for my current needs, and the time it takes is very reasonable. From fluid mounting the film to stitching the 12 images together takes maybe 5 minutes.

    But... the major limitation of camera scanning approaches is that some pictures don't stitch because of the contents, e.g., a landscape where the top part of the picture is a clean sky will not stitch automatically. I've tested problem pictures using Lightroom, Photoshop, PTGui, Microsoft ICE... no luck. For difficult pictures that won't stitch you need to be able to use a system that stitches them based on known physical positions rather than contents (and that means using a system's like Peter's that allows for that kind of precision). This is a situation where an actual scanner wins.

    --------------

    Something else to keep in mind that I'm struggling with now is the impact of the sensing technology on the look of the resulting "scan". I'd like to standardize on one developer so I've been making careful, controlled comparisons of HC-110 and Xtol for HP5+ negatives. According to Kodak, Xtol at full strength is supposed to provide better shadow detail, grain and sharpness than HC-110 at Dilution B (1:31). From what I can see, any differences on the negative are lost when camera scanning. In other words, I find it very difficult to see a difference between the Xtol and HC-110 negatives; they both look equally good. I need to do more testing, but I'm becoming convinced that the characteristics of the digital camera sensor overwhelm the subtle characteristics of the negative. It's not simply about resolution either. A digital sensor isn't film so we shouldn't expect a camera scan (or a scanner scan, which is still a digital image) to look like film. I'm going to be sending out some negatives for drum scanning soon and I'm curious to see whether or not (and how much) more faithful the drum scan is to the characteristics of the negative.

    Of course there's a whole other variable, which is the printing side. If you're scanning with the intention of printing, e.g., on an inkjet printer, then the subtle differences you might be able to see on the negative with a loupe are most likely not going to be visible in prints. First, there's what the scanning process does. Second, the printer, the driver, the ink and the paper have a major impact on what the print looks like. I use an Epson 3880 and print with a monochrome inkset via Quadtone RIP. Test prints at 16x20 size of my Xtol versus HC-110 negatives are indistinguishable.

    To be clear, I'm not really seeing a "problem" here! I'm pleased with the results and getting the prints I want. In that context, the details and quirks are not particularly important to me.

  2. #32
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Pere, an eyeopener!

    Thanks for posting evidence.
    Tin Can

  3. #33
    New Orleans, LA
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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Back in the old days if we needed to copy a transparency we would tape it to a piece of white plexiglass, light it from behind, and shoot another 4x5. Perhaps this method could be used with a high-end digital camera (50MP?) to achieve a digital image that could be enlarged, etc.

  4. #34
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    In the end, whatever the choice to digitize, it comes down to the operator and their skill.

  5. #35

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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Moe View Post
    Pere, an eyeopener!

    Thanks for posting evidence.
    No... not at all. Thanks for openning my eyes:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #36

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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    You don't need to take the glass out of the Epson scanner. The best option in my opinion to scan 8X10" materials on the V700 or V800 is fluid mounting, with the media mounted to the bottom of a sheet of glass spaced just a bit off the glass. Buy a sheet of window glass cut to the size of the existing glass, and glue small washers as spacers at the four corners. Mount the negative or transparency on the glass with fluid mount, negative side to the glass, cover it with a thin sheet of clear polyester, and tape around the edges with blue masking tape. Now place the glass on the scanner, negative down, and choose Film with Film Area Guide in Document Type of the Epson scanning software. The washers will place the plane of focus just above the level of the scanner glass, which generally is the best point of focus with this setting.

    It is possible to get very good results in fluid mounting negatives and transparency materials with the Epson V700/V800. Not as good in absolute terms as one could get with a drum scanner or professional flatbed, but perhaps good enough for your purposes. And setting up a drum scanner or professional flatbed can be a lot of hassle, and expensive to farm out.

    Scanning with the film placed negative side down on the scanner glass (without fluid mounting) gives pretty good results, but not as good as fluid mounted, and with many film you will get AN rings scanning this way. Fluid mounting, if done correctly, always enhances scan quality.

    Sandy
    I know absolutely nothing about scanning but I do know about washers. There is no industry standard in metal or plastic washer thickness. I know this because I owned a boat repair shop and still have several thousand washers at least, from many different manufacturers in many different sizes. Even different production runs from the same supplier will differ in thickness. I am of the firm belief that metal thickness descriptions are mere suggestions. Even proudly made in the USA items differ. O-rings on the other hand are very consistent. So is cork/rubber gasket material

    If it were me and I wanted to do this (hopefully in the near future) I would go the O-ring or cork gasket spacer route on the sheet of glass. Consistent thickness and won't scratch anything.

  7. #37
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronnate View Post
    I know absolutely nothing about scanning but I do know about washers. There is no industry standard in metal or plastic washer thickness. I know this because I owned a boat repair shop and still have several thousand washers at least, from many different manufacturers in many different sizes. Even different production runs from the same supplier will differ in thickness. I am of the firm belief that metal thickness descriptions are mere suggestions. Even proudly made in the USA items differ. O-rings on the other hand are very consistent. So is cork/rubber gasket material

    If it were me and I wanted to do this (hopefully in the near future) I would go the O-ring or cork gasket spacer route on the sheet of glass. Consistent thickness and won't scratch anything.
    I work in Aerospace analyzing structures. We use peel shims that are accurate at thicknesses of .001 in. So it is very easy to shim something accurately. Sheet metal is also quite standardized on thickness. You can get AL like 0.016 or 0.008 thick that is very standard. You would probably do more harm to it cutting out what you need than anything else.

    If you can get a small amount of peel shim, that is what I would use. Also, you can buy standard thickness shims that are quite accurate on thickness.

    You could measure the washers and come up with several that are the same thickness and use those as well.

  8. #38
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    Tin Can

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  10. #40

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    Re: How do you digitize 8x10" sheet film?

    All right then. I just got hold of a ScanMate 11000 - Im getting in to drum scanning. Wish me luck B-)

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