Critiques and Discussion-- what are they?

[mmerig]

The Large Format Landscapes forum is a favorite of mine, but when regarding critiques and efficient use of space, I think it could be greatly improved. The relevant LFPF guideline reads:

Image Sharing (LF) & Discussion - Post your own large-format images (based on 4"x5" or larger format) for sharing and discussion. Critiques should only be offered if requested by the original poster.

There is a range of meanings for the word "critique", according to dictionaries, and in essence, it does not necessarily have to be negative. Most posters don't request a critique, so in these cases I would expect just the image to be posted and that's it, but there are so many comments that could be considered critiques, (e.g., great composition! love the mood, etc.) I figured the rule was not strictly enforced. Recently I made a short comment about an image being too dark, and the moderator removed it (and a similar one from another poster) because it was considered a critique, and the original poster did not request critiques. I am not upset about my post removal at all, but I wonder why the positive critiques are allowed, but not the negative ones.

A critique is nearly synonymous with "judgement", and although "judgement" or "being judgemental" usually has a negative connotation, a judgement in a court of law, for example, is positive for some, and negative for others. Maybe a photographer wants an image to be "too dark", and a comment saying it is "too dark" could be viewed as positive.

What is the difference between discussion and critique? Given the above, it would be hard to discuss an image without crossing the very vague line into critique.

Also, is there a bandwidth/file storage issue when an image is repeated many times in subsequent posts, due to comments below them in replies? Bandwidth aside, I find it tedious to wade through the same image many times to get to a new one, the ususal difference being a short comment below.

My suggested improvement is to:

1. Have a forum that allows critiques as a default, and substantial ones at that (both technical and aesthetic aspects), and careful editing of the replies to leave out the image, but reference it somehow. The original poster should name the image for reference.

2. Another forum could be for image sharing, with no comments at all.

3. Alternatively, clarify critique so that we know when the rules are being broken. This would take some thought and discussion from forum users, but is probably the best way to go about it.

This would require a big change, as the current LF image sharing forums would have to be closed to be efficient about it, assuming my concerns are valid or important enough to consider.

Before posting this, I searched the LFP website about critiques and read through them. There is some overlap but I think this one's unique enough to be a new post.

[LabRat]

It's a prickly fruit...

On one hand, some one might only want positive affrmation and want everyone to like it, gathering unhelpful comments like "You Rock" or "Very nice" which would not help someone else who is trying to work through a visual problem or direction, or someone viewing the image might have their own biases that they are filtering through... So a complex situation...

The forum seems ok to get some motivation to present images in progress, but in general is is hard to find good review for one's work, as it is sorta "preaching to the choir" where technical problems can be discussed well, but outside of established genres, one is on their own... And the usual problem of singular images not always showing the progression of an idea towards a concept of the whole full circle...

I think it is difficult to find an outlet where what is in someone's mindscape can be objectively explored by others, but everyone please keep doing what you are doing, and I hope everyone's work will see the light of day somewhere and make an impression, or in the very least may the maker fulfill self discovery and advance along their path...

Learn from your "critics", but spread your own wings and fly and may others recognize your inner visions somehow/someway...

Steve K

[Mark Sawyer]

I think the most poignant and insightful photographic criticism is "your camera is ugly and you print things funny".

[Ulophot]

As one who, in seeking truth, tends to be frank in speaking of work of fellow artists (by which I refer here to persons already friends) who share their work with me -- because I welcome their views of my work as well -- I appreciate the gist of your post. I would say that, for this forum, the directive should simply be taken as, compliments are fine, but the artist may not wish to know that you think he or she should have composed/cropped/exposed/printed/etc. the image otherwise, so, unless asked, don't offer. enjoy what you like, learn as you wish.
In this understanding, it is easy for any poster to simply add a line of text, inviting thoughts, critique, comments, or whatever he or she may wish to elicit, either generally or in respect to a particular aspect of the work, such as, "I did x and x, but I'm having trouble getting the separation of the higher values that I want," or "The right third is bothering me somehow but I'm not sure what it is."
So, I think the use of "critique," in this context, is clear enough. In a workshop setting or other in-person grouping, it would tend to be closer the fuller definition of the word.

[jp]

Quoting a picture and having it show does not consume additional bandwidth. Options you have to improve navigation include:1) brushing up or down on your touchpad if using a laptop rather than scrolling to make things go by faster. 2) Configuring the settings in your forum account to show 20 posts per page instead of 10. You then spend half as much time flipping through pages of posts.

Personally I think asking for critique (expecting a mix of negative and positive) is the best approach. Some people do that. While we seem to have groupthink on some topics, image aesthetics is not one of them. We have grand landscape f64 adherents, dystopian scifi themed tin typists, pictorialists, post modern Shore deadpan, and everything in between. Every design rule meants to be broken. What one person says is too dark is an obscure homage to something epic from 110 years ago... A color cast might be a scanning / adjustment error or someone's choice. To address those differences without being asked is to come up to a stranger and imply that you know their stuff better than them and want to be right. Doesn't go over so well and not so great for community. Say something nice and it's appreciated or provides encouraging feedback. It's not just the other side of the coin with positive/negative critique. It's a good time with tons of creative choices for photography.

If you have the opportunity to meet and spend time with some members here and know the path they are on for photography, it's good and you could then ask their advice and make use of it.

[Oren Grad]

If you'd like a thoughtfully critical evaluation of your own pictures, feel free to start a thread with an example and ask for that. If you're not sure that people will understand exactly what you're looking for, then by all means spell it out. You can include "critique" in the thread title if you'd like the thread to be easily recognized as having that focus.

If the issue is that you would like others to submit their work for critique, why not lead by example? Start a thread about some of your own work, and show that there is something to be gained.

The mix of threads here reflects the interests of our actively-participating members. We will have critique threads on an ongoing basis only if on the one hand there is a large enough group of members who want to participate in such threads, and on the other there are enough participating members who are sufficiently effective as critics that others find the experience of reading their observations worthwhile.

The only way to find out if it will work is to try.

Re the practice of "quoting" pictures, there are inevitably tradeoffs. It's a nuisance to have to keep flipping back to another screen in order to see what people are talking about, or to launch/manage multiple instances of threads in order to keep the target pictures available for reference in separate windows. It gets especially tricky in long threads where discussions of different pictures mingle and you can't just hop to the beginning of the thread. You can make it a bit easier by having a dedicated thread for each critique "session", but then you lose the benefit of having established threads for specific subjects or genres.

[mmerig]

Thanks to all for the feed back. Perhaps the simplest solution to my concerns is to clarify what critique and discussion are in the Image sharing guidelines. I could offer some up if that would be helpful.

I am sorry I was not clear enough in my original post. Nearly all of what Oren Grad mentions as possible issues are not mine. I was mainly confused about what exactly was meant by critique and discussion.

Although not very active, I have posted images, and if I recall correctly, I always welcome comments. Perhaps I am weird, but I expect at least some negative comments, but I don't think I ever get any. For example, my most recent post of images was #13478, in Large Format Landscapes. These are from a study on long-term ecological changes I am working on, but I thought the series in that post could be interesting to photographers.

My background is in the sciences, and the usual custom is that comments on work are mostly negative, with the idea of improving the work rather than boosting the ego. I was also brought up this way. I mainly come to this site to learn, and I must admit I do not get much out of short, pleasant comments, either for my own images, or others'. But being nice to each other is very nice, and I would never want to see an end to that.

I rarely comment on others' images, and in only one case did I say anything negative (and I thought it was in a nice enough tone). As I mentioned in my original post, it seemed that the guidelines were not strictly enforced, so I did not think it mattered to say something that could sound negative.

Regarding the repeating images in replies; I get it now, not much of a problem, and thanks for the explanations.

One last thing: I am not sure what Mark Sawyer meant in his post, but I thought it was pretty funny, and I would still laugh if it was directed at me.

[Pere Casals]

1. Have a forum that allows critiques as a default

IMHO critiques have to be possible but not as a default. I'd say that there is no problem in even starting a thread "Images, interested in critique".

IMHO critique is very interesting for people like me that are learners because it allows to learn and acknowledge ways to improve, but some experienced people simply may want to show art, and in that case any critique becomes superfluous noise on the art. Perhaps art has to be admired, sometimes praised, and rarely commented.

Anyway one may ask the author in a PM or in the thread itself if it's a technical question, I guess...

What I agree is that a dedicated critique section would be very interesting for those wanting it, and it would require a moderation effort.

[Oren Grad]

Perhaps the simplest solution to my concerns is to clarify what critique and discussion are in the Image sharing guidelines.

The statement in our guidelines, "Critiques should only be offered if requested by the original poster", means simply that one should assume that posters in the image-sharing subforums are not looking for judgment on whether their work could be better, or advice on how to make it so, unless they explicitly ask for it. This is a rule of courtesy, nothing more. We're not trying to define distinctions between "critique" and "discussion" in any deeper way.

My background is in the sciences, and the usual custom is that comments on work are mostly negative, with the idea of improving the work rather than boosting the ego.

The custom here is different, because this is a different kind of community, with a different mix of purposes, inclinations and expectations, and a different set of lessons learned from experience.

I mainly come to this site to learn, and I must admit I do not get much out of short, pleasant comments, either for my own images, or others'.

To reiterate: if you'd like to see a different kind of image-discussion thread, create one - take the lead, and see whether others are interested in following.

[BrianShaw]

I’m very interested in learning more about that which you seek. To me critique runs the entire gamut from “I love/hate it” to an extensive artsy-fartsy analysis.

Example please!