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Thread: Toilets in the Back-country?

  1. #11
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Randy, you don't need to remind me why I avoid the Muir Trail. Why not carry a boom box too, and a portable card table (yeah, those exist too), and a tally of all the stocks earnings you need to keep track of twenty times a day? Why not just stay home if you are so addicted to electronic gadgets? ... Well, that's exactly what I'm thinking (and attempting not to actually say) when I run into those kinds of geeks. Most of them are too zombified trying to get from point A to point B on their damn GPS that they don't see a thing anyway. I finally did a popular loop trail a month ago which did involve about 14 mi of the Muir Trail during the whole 12 days. I had a 75 yr old friend I thought I should accompany. He's quite experience and in shape too, with good gear, but things like balance and so-so knees on steep areas has become something of a problem. A nice, photogenic trip, regardless; but those JMT types, well....

  2. #12
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    JP - it's virtually suicide to fly even private planes over much of the Sierra Crest, unless it's something beefy like a twin-engine otter. Even military helicopters can't get in sometimes; and rescue helicopters have problems both with weather and often just finding level ground to land on. The crest of the range has infamous shear winds and downdrafts. Incidentally, most of the Park Service and backcountry Rangers use old school big battery radios. They're expected to know their way around by sight and don't use any kind of GPS. There are a couple of problems with GPS. One is that it is no substitute for experience.
    Lot of people get in trouble because they trust gadgets rather than common sense. They might even be carrying a GPS rescue beacon, which would seem to be wise; but every time a neophyte gets a stomach ache in the mtns because he brought a taco for his first day's lunch and panics from a severe gas attack, and triggers his beacon, that means limited rescue resources get diverted from real emergencies, and somebody else could die. But one of the retirement presents I was given was a very fancy GPS watch. I haven't quite figured out all the things it does; there are a lot of functions. But it does have a nice stopwatch feature good for time exposures, and I took it along on the last trip just for fun. ... But as per drones, I suspect they're being used in the two official Conservation Areas on the east side of the range to monitor cougar vs bighorn interaction, since bighorn sheep are still an endangered species in the Sierra. Those areas are off limits to hikers and climbers most of the year anyway. No one is going to allow either drones or commercial delivery of anything into the heart of the Range, however. That's written into law. Even the backcountry rangers have to ferry their own supplies via backpack or mule.

  3. #13
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    I think toilets along busy trails is a great idea -- it will let me know where not to go...literally and figuretively.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  4. #14

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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    hmmm...toilets and drones...some practical-use connection perhaps?

  5. #15

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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    JP - it's virtually suicide to fly even private planes over much of the Sierra Crest, unless it's something beefy like a twin-engine otter. Even military helicopters can't get in sometimes; and rescue helicopters have problems both with weather and often just finding level ground to land on. The crest of the range has infamous shear winds and downdrafts. Incidentally, most of the Park Service and backcountry Rangers use old school big battery radios. They're expected to know their way around by sight and don't use any kind of GPS. There are a couple of problems with GPS. One is that it is no substitute for experience.
    Lot of people get in trouble because they trust gadgets rather than common sense. They might even be carrying a GPS rescue beacon, which would seem to be wise; but every time a neophyte gets a stomach ache in the mtns because he brought a taco for his first day's lunch and panics from a severe gas attack, and triggers his beacon, that means limited rescue resources get diverted from real emergencies, and somebody else could die. But one of the retirement presents I was given was a very fancy GPS watch. I haven't quite figured out all the things it does; there are a lot of functions. But it does have a nice stopwatch feature good for time exposures, and I took it along on the last trip just for fun. ... But as per drones, I suspect they're being used in the two official Conservation Areas on the east side of the range to monitor cougar vs bighorn interaction, since bighorn sheep are still an endangered species in the Sierra. Those areas are off limits to hikers and climbers most of the year anyway. No one is going to allow either drones or commercial delivery of anything into the heart of the Range, however. That's written into law. Even the backcountry rangers have to ferry their own supplies via backpack or mule.
    Drew regarding light aircraft in the Sierra I've flown a Super Cub all over those mountains and while there is a lot of crumpled aluminum up there, awareness of local topographic and meteorological conditions can stack the deck in the airman's favor. The boogeyman though is wind shear not accompanied by tell tale lenticulars and of course, box canyons. As with many things, just being aware of actual conditions and knowing when and how to turn back is way more survivable than blindly trusting technology in the mountains.
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  6. #16
    Jac@stafford.net's Avatar
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Layton View Post
    hmmm...toilets and drones...some practical-use connection perhaps?
    Diaper pickup and disposal?

  7. #17
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Hi John. My dad had to fly out of a rural airstrip once a week in a single engine plane. They always went around the southern end of the Sierra and never ever over the top. Do you remember that time in the late 60's or early 70's when eleven planes, all volunteer searchers, went down looking for one lost one? I ran into the remains of two of those the next summer, both taken straight down by down by windshear, and I do mean nose straight down. One plane wreck didn't have a single piece left bigger than four square feet, and the other ironically went dead vertical into deep snow in a high meadow, and when the snow finally thawed, it looked just like an upside down sculpture, still perfectly intact with the nose stuck in a marsh. Fortunately, I had been officially spotted slightly before I got there, and the frozen bodies were already removed. Some of the planes from that year have never been found. I think one went straight through the ice in Fourth Recess Lake, and is still down there somewhere. Sudden downdraft accidents trying to clear high peaks, all of em.

  8. #18
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Jac, once again you are entirely unfamiliar with Western culture. We already have redneck diaper disposal. It's called streams, sidewalks, parking lots, beneath the picnic table, right behind the tent in the campground. But drones might be useful for target practice.

  9. #19

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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Hi John. My dad had to fly out of a rural airstrip once a week in a single engine plane. They always went around the southern end of the Sierra and never ever over the top. Do you remember that time in the late 60's or early 70's when eleven planes, all volunteer searchers, went down looking for one lost one? I ran into the remains of two of those the next summer, both taken straight down by down by windshear, and I do mean nose straight down. One plane wreck didn't have a single piece left bigger than four square feet, and the other ironically went dead vertical into deep snow in a high meadow, and when the snow finally thawed, it looked just like an upside down sculpture, still perfectly intact with the nose stuck in a marsh. Fortunately, I had been officially spotted slightly before I got there, and the frozen bodies were already removed. Some of the planes from that year have never been found. I think one went straight through the ice in Fourth Recess Lake, and is still down there somewhere. Sudden downdraft accidents trying to clear high peaks, all of em.
    .

    Yes. Flying across those ridges should be done at an acute angle and at a generous altitude (2,000'AGL minimum,) testing for turbulence. When it starts getting rough cross back fast. Light aircraft can sometimes handle wind shear better than a heavier ship because the down draft cannot go through rock. A heavier aircraft like a forestry tanker develops a lot of momentum with often terrible results. Of course they are usually maxed out and operating in the Restricted category. OTOH light planes can get trapped by ground effect---a better outcome--- unless tall trees come into the picture. Tube and fabric light planes may do better than aluminum and rivets (just speculation on my part) An FA-18 pilot from NAS Lemoore luckily survived a rotor cloud in a flying club Cessna 172 and made it back to base, although every rivet was stressed and all that 172 air frame was good for after was scrap aluminum.
    High peaks? No thank you. A fourteener would require 16,000' elevation for safety. A Vegas bound 737 can do that, not a "grass-hopper" like I flew.
    Once in Colorado over the Rockies I got into an up draft that took us to 16,000+' I had the nose down and full throttle and we were still climbing all the while laughing like crazy because of oxygen deprivation. I straightened her up and rode to the top then road the downdraft down like an elevator and eventually flew out of the phenomenon.
    Apparently not uncommon in CO as Denver Approach seemed nonplussed about a VFR PA-18 busting airspace.
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  10. #20
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Toilets in the Back-country?

    What one sometimes sees over the Sierra crest at around 15,000 ft, running along the axis of the range lined up with the jet stream, are clouds which look almost like multi-laminated plywood. Once in awhile they drop clear down onto the peaks, so I know darn well what kinds of winds are in there - ferocious. Then there are those huge rotor clouds that develop above the Owens Valley on the east side, resembling a spinning top, which can apparently grind a plane to bits.

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