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Thread: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

  1. #1
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    I used so far the 1:1:20 and 10 with good results. And did 4 sheets of 4x5 with a 450ml solution at those dilutions. I suspect I could have done another 4 sheets, but haven't tried yet.

    My question is, for doing minimal agitation or stand development, (or for that matter standard intermittent agitation) I would think I could use the 1:1:100 or 200, but have longer development times. This also seems to have some positive benefits as well.

    Has anyone done this? I think I will try it with my next set of bw images.

    Basically sacrifice some time for using a lot less solution. I am also thinking of mixing it from scratch, are all the chemicals available still? I can get the dry mixture from Photographers Formulary to make 50 liters at normal dilution.

    But, one question for sure as mentioned above is, how many sheets of 4x5 film can be done with 450ml of 1:1:100 or 200? With 1:1:10 or 20? Or is it just a matter of testing?

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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    I do minimal agitation with Fomapan 100 in Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 fairly frequently. I use tanks & hangers. I don't have the exact timing in front of me now, but it's something like initial agitation for 1 min, followed by 1 agitation cycle at third marks for a total of 15 mins. If you want the exact info, just let me know and when I'm at my computer I'll get it right.

    IIRC, you only need about 75ml working solution (at 1:1:100) per 4x5 sheet of film. Back when I was playing around with extreme minimal agitation and using a very dilute mix of Pyrocat-HD, Mr. King told me you could probably go up as high as 1:1:400 or 500 without worrying about weak chemistry. Therefore, I wouldn't worry about several 4x5 sheets at a time with 1:1:100.

    I haven't bought the pre-mixed stuff for years. In addition to Photo Formulary, check out ArtCraft Chemicals; generally cheaper prices there. Just be sensible when mixing--i wear rubber gloves, eye protection, a breathing mask, and mix the catechol outside--and you'll be fine.

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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Do you mean to use a 2-bath 1+1+100 or 200 dilution? That sounds like very very little developer to soak into the emulsion. Why not start with something like 1+1+40?

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Quote Originally Posted by koraks View Post
    Do you mean to use a 2-bath 1+1+100 or 200 dilution? That sounds like very very little developer to soak into the emulsion. Why not start with something like 1+1+40?
    Yes, I was thinking of 2 bath at 1+1+100. I was reading Sandy's write up and it sounded like there was some advantage to a weaker solution. It is also dependent on how much of developer A is absorbed into the emulsion as to how it affects the highlight development. So I was thinking with a weaker solution you have better control over how much/how fast developer A is absorbed. Of course, getting the time right is not going to be easy. It should work since highlight development is not really affected by developer B which pretty much instantly develops the highlights while continuing to develop the shadows so again, you could gain better control over shadow development as well.

    Anyway, that is my thought. I figure why not try it, if it works cool, if it doesn't then I know. Perhaps it ends up at a 1:1:40 or 50 for the 2 bath, that is still better on chemicals than 1:20 or 10. The other idea is minimal or stand agitation. With typical dilutions it sounds like I could process 8 sheets or so of 4x5 in 450ml of solution, especially at the stronger dilutions.

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan9940 View Post
    I do minimal agitation with Fomapan 100 in Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 fairly frequently. I use tanks & hangers. I don't have the exact timing in front of me now, but it's something like initial agitation for 1 min, followed by 1 agitation cycle at third marks for a total of 15 mins. If you want the exact info, just let me know and when I'm at my computer I'll get it right.

    IIRC, you only need about 75ml working solution (at 1:1:100) per 4x5 sheet of film. Back when I was playing around with extreme minimal agitation and using a very dilute mix of Pyrocat-HD, Mr. King told me you could probably go up as high as 1:1:400 or 500 without worrying about weak chemistry. Therefore, I wouldn't worry about several 4x5 sheets at a time with 1:1:100.

    I haven't bought the pre-mixed stuff for years. In addition to Photo Formulary, check out ArtCraft Chemicals; generally cheaper prices there. Just be sensible when mixing--i wear rubber gloves, eye protection, a breathing mask, and mix the catechol outside--and you'll be fine.
    I would be interested in any information you may have.

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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Sorry, Steven, I missed that you are interested in 2-bath; I use only single bath at 1:1:100 or 2:2:100 to get denser negs for pt/pd printing. Anyway, FWIW, my development process for Fomapan 100 is: no pre-soak, Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100, 15 mins @ 70F, continuous agitation for the first minute (10 cycles), followed by 2 cycles at 10 1/2 mins, 7 mins, and 3 1/2 mins. As I said, I use tanks & hangers for this and a "cycle" for me is lift, 45 degrees left, down, lift, 45 degrees right, down, then sit until next agitation. I get beautiful, evenly developed negs that reveal quite strong edge effects.

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan9940 View Post
    Sorry, Steven, I missed that you are interested in 2-bath; I use only single bath at 1:1:100 or 2:2:100 to get denser negs for pt/pd printing. Anyway, FWIW, my development process for Fomapan 100 is: no pre-soak, Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100, 15 mins @ 70F, continuous agitation for the first minute (10 cycles), followed by 2 cycles at 10 1/2 mins, 7 mins, and 3 1/2 mins. As I said, I use tanks & hangers for this and a "cycle" for me is lift, 45 degrees left, down, lift, 45 degrees right, down, then sit until next agitation. I get beautiful, evenly developed negs that reveal quite strong edge effects.
    Thanks for the info. I will be using standard developing as well depending on the scene photographed. Currently I am using a daylight tank and will try the minimal agitation with a slow inversion at the times you have listed with the continuous agitation for the first minute as you describe. Except, I will do a pre-soak to start. This will be a starting point.

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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    I used 12:480 + 12:480 two bath for a single sheet in SSP45 tank, 6 minutes each with 5 minute presoak for Bergger Panchro 400, agitation every 1 minute. Worked ok for a 6 stop scene with white water at zone 10.

    For EMA (N) I have settled on 3:2:480~500 for a single sheet of FP4+ EI100 with 2minutes initial agitation + 30seconds agitation at 1/3rd points for a total time around 22-26 minutes depending on scene.
    Bergger seems to need a couple of minutes longer for EI400, but I have not dialed it in yet.
    Delta 100 a minute or two shorter.

    Not a fan of the Bergger panchro film yet. I liked their old 200 film from 2005. I may need a different developer than Pyrocat HD.
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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    Interesting. I am gonna try some version of 2 bath here in next couple weeks.

  10. #10
    おせわに なります! Andrew O'Neill's Avatar
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    Re: Using 2-bath Pyrocat at 1:1:100 or 1:1:200 vs 1:1:10 or 20

    I was only satisfied with 1+10 dilution for both parts A and B with HP5 and TMY-2.

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