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Thread: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

  1. #1

    Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    I just bought a Toyo 45AII - moving up from 6x7 both in camera format and darkroom.

    I love shooting very wide angle (16-20mm 35mm equiv), so I also bought a 65mm Fuji Fujinon SWD 65mm f/5.6 lens. I am aware that camera movements will be very limited, but what I am wondering is how much movement will I get with the standard recessed lens board that is 12mm deep versus a 17mm deep lens board? I read somewhere that there might be something like a 30mm deep recessed 110x110 copal 0 lens board but I haven't found one - and even if there was, not sure if getting to controls would then be a major problem.

    Thoughts?

    Regards,
    Mike

  2. #2

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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    Unless I am mistaken about a physical limitation of the camera, a recessed lens board will not increase your movements. That is all about image circle, which is a limitation of the lens, not its position on the camera. You have 169mm of image circle at f22. 4x5 needs about 154mm.

  3. #3

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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    I have a 45A & 65mm Grandagon-N on the 12mm recessed board. (I also have the 30mm deep board, but don't use it as the 12mm board is enough.)

    I can use the full rise & shift available on the front standard. With 4x5 film, fall is limited by bed visibility to ~6mm in landscape orientation, and none in portrait. If you "drop" the bed, you'll get ~12mm of fall in portrait before you see the bed.

    A couple of notes:
    My camera has a new bellows that doesn't obstruct these movements. I'm not sure how the original bellows would behave. Also, I have a revolving back, not sure if that moves things more toward the rear of the camera than if it was only a reversible (remove - rotate - reattach) back.

    I use a Gepe 3.25" flexible cable release extension with the recessed board that works great, but is kind of pricey.

  4. #4

    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    Quote Originally Posted by alan_b View Post
    I have a 45A & 65mm Grandagon-N on the 12mm recessed board. (I also have the 30mm deep board, but don't use it as the 12mm board is enough.)

    I can use the full rise & shift available on the front standard. With 4x5 film, fall is limited by bed visibility to ~6mm in landscape orientation, and none in portrait. If you "drop" the bed, you'll get ~12mm of fall in portrait before you see the bed.

    A couple of notes:
    My camera has a new bellows that doesn't obstruct these movements. I'm not sure how the original bellows would behave. Also, I have a revolving back, not sure if that moves things more toward the rear of the camera than if it was only a reversible (remove - rotate - reattach) back.

    I use a Gepe 3.25" flexible cable release extension with the recessed board that works great, but is kind of pricey.
    Thanks, I've read that the smaller image circle results in restricted degree of movement, so I'm expecting that. Yes, one of the reasons I went with the Toyo was because it has the drop bed and doesn't require switching the bellows for WA. If you are getting that degree of movement with the standard 12mm recessed board, I'm expecting to get a little more with the 17mm recessed lens board, but I'm sure still limited.

    The 3" Gepe extension looks like just the right item to deal with the recessed board.

    Regards,
    Mike

  5. #5
    Huub
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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    I have used this camera with a 58mm and the 12mm recessed lensboard. Your movements will only be limited by the image circle of the lens, not by the camera nor the recessed lensboard. Putting the lens in a 17mm board will only make it harder to reach the shutter and adjust its settings, but won't bring any gain in movements.

  6. #6

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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    This is my Fujinon f/5.6 65mm lens in a 12mm recessed board. I can pretty much state if you have a deeper recessed board, you'll need pointy nose pliers to adjust anything. In fact I used that lens today and I use my ignition key to adjust the aperture.

    Below it is on my Toyo 45G with standard bellows; effectively no movements as the bellows are scrunched right up. My Shen Hao 4x5" wooden folder has my bag bellows attached, easy as anything.

    Mick.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7

    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post
    This is my Fujinon f/5.6 65mm lens in a 12mm recessed board. I can pretty much state if you have a deeper recessed board, you'll need pointy nose pliers to adjust anything. In fact I used that lens today and I use my ignition key to adjust the aperture.

    Below it is on my Toyo 45G with standard bellows; effectively no movements as the bellows are scrunched right up. My Shen Hao 4x5" wooden folder has my bag bellows attached, easy as anything.

    Mick.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Interesting that with the 45G the camera bellow is obviously scrunched up fully as you say and show, and the prior poster said the movements on a 45AII are limited by the image circle, not by the camera (or at least not as much I assume). Once reason I picked up the 45AII is because it supports WA lenses down to a 47mm without a bag bellows. So I am not sure which is right - maybe both are - maybe the 45AII is better with WA lenses than the 45G - don't know, but will find out pretty soon when the 65mm arrives along with the 12mm recessed board and I can mount it and see for myself - I was just curious to hear from others in anticipation...

    Regards,
    Mike

  8. #8
    Indiana, USA chassis's Avatar
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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    I use the 45AII with a 58mm lens regularly. Great camera and lens combination imo.

    A recessed lensboard is needed to achieve infinity focus. What movements remain, are a result or outcome. In other words, you get what you get. I use a 12mm recessed lensboard, and infinity focus is possible. A more deeply recessed board is unnecessary, although it means the front standard is slight more forward and the bellows slightly less compressed. The result may be less bellows-related restriction of movements. There would be a trade-off in more difficult access to the shutter controls.

    I use an angled extension on the shutter release. I don't see how it would be possible to use a 12mm, or deeper, recessed lensboard, without a release extension.

    Regarding bellows, it is news to me that a Toyo OEM bag bellows is available for this camera. Is it available on the aftermarket? My OEM pleated bellows restrict movements with the 58mm lens at the extremes of the respective movements. This has not hindered imagemaking. Aftermarket pleated bellows may be more supple and allow more movements, I have no experience with this.

    Examples of the 58mm SAXL with a Toyo 45AII and a 12mm recessed lensboard:








  9. #9

    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    Quote Originally Posted by chassis View Post
    I use the 45AII with a 58mm lens regularly. Great camera and lens combination imo.

    A recessed lensboard is needed to achieve infinity focus. What movements remain, are a result or outcome. In other words, you get what you get. I use a 12mm recessed lensboard, and infinity focus is possible. A more deeply recessed board is unnecessary, although it means the front standard is slight more forward and the bellows slightly less compressed. The result may be less bellows-related restriction of movements. There would be a trade-off in more difficult access to the shutter controls.

    I use an angled extension on the shutter release. I don't see how it would be possible to use a 12mm, or deeper, recessed lensboard, without a release extension.

    Regarding bellows, it is news to me that a Toyo OEM bag bellows is available for this camera. Is it available on the aftermarket? My OEM pleated bellows restrict movements with the 58mm lens at the extremes of the respective movements. This has not hindered imagemaking. Aftermarket pleated bellows may be more supple and allow more movements, I have no experience with this.

    Examples of the 58mm SAXL with a Toyo 45AII and a 12mm recessed lensboard:







    Right, the 45AII doesn't have interchanagable bellows - I was referring to other cameras that do and didn't mean to imply that the 45A/II does. Yes, I do plan to get the angled extension for the 12mm recessed board - seem like a necessity.

    Regards,
    Mike

  10. #10

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    Re: Movements with a 65mm 5.6 Fuji lens and Toyo 45AII

    Quote Originally Posted by firstlightimaging View Post
    Thanks, I've read that the smaller image circle results in restricted degree of movement, so I'm expecting that. Yes, one of the reasons I went with the Toyo was because it has the drop bed and doesn't require switching the bellows for WA. If you are getting that degree of movement with the standard 12mm recessed board, I'm expecting to get a little more with the 17mm recessed lens board, but I'm sure still limited.

    The 3" Gepe extension looks like just the right item to deal with the recessed board.

    Regards,
    Mike
    Here's the 65 on a 12mm board focused at infinity, centered and with max rise ~20mm. (Direct rise on front standard - you could get more indirectly)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Since the front standard is clearing the body, a deeper board would only help if your bellows is limiting. With a 65mm lens, you're out of image circle anyway though.

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