Fujinon lenses - grain difference

[uncommonfaces]

Hello,

New to the forum and new to LF. I hope I won't ask too many stupid questions, but here goes...

I'm in the process of comparing lenses, looking for the right focal length and specifically, glass that sings in scans. I'm currently comparing a Fujinon W 105mm (multi coated) and a Fujinon W 125mm (single).

- The 105mm, aside from minimal coverage/soft corners, is working really well when scanning, for its acutance and what I feel is a very clean optical character.

- The 125mm is sharper and much better corner to corner, but quite noticeably, results in more visible grain. This is definitely the case in the negs through a loupe as well as scans. I've made exposures of the same scene with both lenses and developed the negs in the same session, temperature/time.

- Film is Delta 100 in ID-11, 1:1.

I can't see anything online about this, but I'm wondering if the different coatings are resulting in more visible grain. Is this a completely mad idea? Or perhaps it's just the difference in focal length, but I have made sure the field of view is close in comparison exposures.

I've been shooting MF for years and don't recall seeing this with different lenses in either darkroom prints or scans.

[Havoc]

Strange, I would expect grain to be a function of exposure and development (with the same film) but I'm only a beginner so I'm curious what the experts will have to say.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I've made exposures of the same scene with both lenses and developed the negs in the same session, temperature/time.

Did you process both films in the same tank together? Were the films of the same lot number?

[alberto_zh]

I also would expect grain to be function of the film and developer, plus the development process. Did you change anything of these three variable? Is manually agitated or rotary processed?


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[Luis-F-S]

Is this a completely mad idea? Or perhaps it's just the difference in focal length, but I have made sure the field of view is close in comparison exposures.

Yes, the coating may affect contrast but not grain. Most of the lenses I use are single coated. L

[koraks]

Lenses and grain have nothing to do with each other. If one lens gives more contrast than another, the low contrast lens may appear to emphasize grain in a side by side comparison as the overall contrast is lower, which needs to be corrected in post processing. Particularly when scanning, such a correction may creep into the work flow unnoticed.

You never really know what you've got unless you print optically. But that's just my humble opinion.

[Pere Casals]

I'm wondering if the different coatings are resulting in more visible grain.

First is that you can post well scanned image crops to better show the issue.




I think in two possibilities:


1) Exposure. A mechanical LF shutter when was brand new had a +/- 30% tolerance, this is marked 1/30 can be actually 1/20 or 1/40, so from one shutter to another one it can be a full exposure stop difference. If the shutter is old then the difference can be greater.

Here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...posted-public/) you can see that a film can deliver more or less grain in darker or lighter areas, for example TXP delivers more grain in the darks while hp5 delivers more in the mids. If you change the exposure this can end in a change in the grain of a particular area. This is about grain structure of the film vs shutter accuracy.

Use a shutter tester ($15 to $90) to measure your shutter speed, this is a requisite to nail LF exposures and to know when you have to fix your shutter.


2) Microcontrast. Grain is way less perceived in areas of the scene that have fine and contrasty detail, while it is shown better in smooth areas, like a washed down sky, or out of focus areas.

In certain conditions (sun in the scene...) a single coated lens delivers slightly less contrast than an MC, with less contrast grain is better perceived.

This is IMHO...


There is a 3rd possibility not related to the lens, this is development, as you know a higher time, temperature or dilution have an impact in the grain.

[Doremus Scudder]

I concur with the above. Grain is inherent in the film and affected by development. Grain is more apparent in denser areas of the negative up to a point. With optical prints, dark mid-tones seem to exhibit the most grain. Your lenses are not going to change the graininess of the film.

Lenses do render images with different contrast, which can make grain more or less apparent depending on a number of factors. I imagine this is what you are seeing.

Bottom line: look elsewhere for the cause of your graininess problem. FWIW, I have a hard time imagining that a 100 ISO large-format film developed in a fine-grain developer like ID-11 should exhibit noticeable grain until the enlargement was rather large. There are other things that look like grain (e.g., micro-reticulation) caused by inadequate temperature control during processing that could be your problem as well. Or a scanning artifact?

Best,

Doremus

[David Lobato]

“Grain” will result from an badly underexposed negative and scanned or printed to a normal look. The shutter on one of your lenses could be a bit short on exposure times.

[koraks]

“Grain” will result from an badly underexposed negative

Or gross overexposure.
Or excessive development.
Or boosting contrast during post processing/printing (digital or darkroom).
His shutter may be short, it may be long, it may not be the shutter at all and be related to (post) processing - who knows?