Question on metering

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I have been metering by picking portion of scene I want in a certain zone. In todays outing, that zo e was fhree. It was a doorway of an abandoned bldg late afternoon. So I spot metered at 1/4 sec for f/22. I then set zhutter speed to 1/15 to put that spot in zone 3. On the assumption that it metered in zone 5.

Sky was at 1/60 spot metered. At 1/15 the sky was approximately 2 stops brighter so provia should be able to handle that spread. Then I decided to meter ground it was at 1/125 sec so a stop brighter still. But Privia should be able to handle that. So I reshot scene to place the ground in zone 6 and fhen in zone 7.

My question is this. For a scene with a bldg and lots of different zones on and around it, how would a preferred metering scenario look? What would you meter? Would you try to place a particular element in a particular zone and let the rest fall where they may? No grad ns filters could be used here, so filter free.

Looking for some ideas. I onow there was s not a perfect answer or one size fits all.

I have read provia 100 F is good for -3 to +3 stops?

[Doremus Scudder]

The method of placing low values to base exposure on is primarily for negative film. Placing a value high enough to ensure detail keeps one from underexposing. Note that in doing this, you are basing exposure on a less dense area of the final product (i.e., the negative) and preventing loss of detail here.

With transparency film, however, it is better to base your exposure on a high value. Transparency film has little latitude and loses detail in the highlights quite rapidly with overexposure. I always based my transparency exposures on the highest "white" that I wanted to retain detail in, for example, white water in the sun or a white shirt or white clouds. These I metered and placed on Zone VII (two stops over from the meter reading). This ensured proper detail in the highlights. Note that this is basing the exposure on a less dense area of the final product (i.e., the transparency) in order to prevent loss of detail.

There are not so many contrast controls with transparency film. A dark shadow with no detail is preferable to a blank, detail-less white, IM-HO. Although changing development to control contrast doesn't work so well with transparency films, there are possibilities to deal with dark shadows including fill flash/reflector and pre-exposure flashing. These were my tools when I worked a lot with transparency film. I'd place the high value and then see what could be done with the lows, if necessary. If nothing were possible (e.g., in a distant landscape), then it was wait for better light, live with the contrast, or skip the shot.

Best,

Doremus

[gnuyork]

I always based my transparency exposures on the highest "white" that I wanted to retain detail in, for example, white water in the sun or a white shirt or white clouds. These I metered and placed on Zone VII (two stops over from the meter reading). This ensured proper detail in the highlights. Note that this is basing the exposure on a less dense area of the final product (i.e., the transparency) in order to prevent loss of detail.

There are not so many contrast controls with transparency film. A dark shadow with no detail is preferable to a blank, detail-less white, IM-HO.

This is how I do it too. Exactly. And I agree that dark shadows are preferable to blown highlights (with the exception of minor specular highlights, I generally ignore those).

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I guess another way to look at this is, what is the brightest zone a film can handle? For the films I used for the bldg scene, (Portra 160, Provia 100FRDPIII, Tmax 100 and Acros100) when I metered on the shadow and placed in ZIII, that meant the brightest areas (sky and foreground) ended up in ZVIII, If I metered on the sky/ground and placed in ZVII, the shadows would be in ZII.

For Provia it sounds like more than 2 stops over and the highlights blow out. Essentially ZVIII and above is too much for Provia (slide film), which means the exposure range to avoid highlights blowing out (like a sky) zones need to be kept between 0 and VII (preferably) III and VII if want shadow detail. Means grad ND to be used.

For color negative, that range can be greater, like Zone 0 to VIII (IX or X)? Black and white 0-X

For me if possible, I would try to keep everything the between zone III and VIII (maybe IX) for everything except slide film, which it looks like it needs to be kept between III and VII (unless little shadow detail is wanted then say 0 to 7.

I know on my Canon 5DMKIII I try to keep things between II and VIII. I don't like to bump up against the right side, plus I am finding out that so called 14 stop range (which I heard some digital cameras are claimed to do) isn't really the case, it doesn't seem to be much different than film as found out yesterday. I am thinking it is more like -3 to +2, maybe +3 if you want to keep detail in the shadows as well as the highlight areas. If shadow detail not as important could go -5 under to +2/3 over.

Of course, using my grad ND filters (1 stop to 5 stop soft and 3 stop hard) I can compress the scene's dynamic range down into the range I want.

Okay, I am ready now to see how far off the mark I am. It makes sense, but then again...

[ic-racer]

We have already expressed our conviction that of the various possible brightness characteristics of the scene which may be measured or estimated, the minimum brightness, B-min., is the most fundamentally rational and significant criterion of correct exposure.-- Jones and Condit 1941

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I agree, but sometimes it is good to just talk it thru.

[Bill Burk]

With slide film, you are getting a final image so "everything" important has to be placed on the film in the Zone where it belongs for realistic finished appearance.

An image I have in mind is a meadow framed by trees. If you are too intent on avoiding highlight blowout you might meter the clouds to place them on Zone VII.

But realistically, the meadow would be better with the grass placed on Zone V and allow the sky to blow out. And yes, neutral-density graduated filters can give you even better overall results.

[rdenney]

It depends on what you are going to do with the slides. If you are going to project them, then I completely agree with Bill Burk--the mid-range values in the primary subject have to look realistic. If you are going to scan them, then I would be tempted to make two exposures and combine them digitally if the scene exceeds the range of the film (which, for slide film, is unrealistically narrow). If you are going to print the film, or scan it using only one exposure, then you worry about the highlights and I'm right there with Doremus.

Rick "who always had to expose slides for Cibachrome printing differently than for projection, mostly in the hopes of avoiding the dreaded contrast masks, which I sucked at making" Denney

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Good points. As I looked back at my shots from a couple days ago (currently being processed) I had a building with strongly lit foreground (initially, I paid no attention to it because it was not really a supporting player (would maybe crop out) and the blue sky of late afternoon. I metered on the open door in shade and then adjusted to put it into zone III. After the shots of putting in zones III and IV, I checked the sky and ground and they metered quite high, which I knew, but since no clouds and ground was yuk, I was more interested in getting the building and supporting cast members right. When I checked based on my placing the door at zones III and IV, the sky/ground ended up at zones VII and VIII. It would not have been practical to use a grad ND here, and I did not think of taking 2 shots, one exposed for highlights and one for darks. With digital, that is a no brainer.

Had I been able to use a grad ND and placed the door in zone III, then the sky would have ended up at zone VI for a 1 stop, V for a 2 Stop and IV for a 3 stop.

Question is then, can slide film handle anything above zone VIII or below zone II? Seems like if at all possible use a grad ND to keep the sky/foreground about zone VII or VIII while keeping the detail in the shadows around II and III.

What can b/w film tolerate as well as color reversal.

With my digital set up, I set my shots up to be contained between zone II and zone VIII since 10 is just white (blown out, paper white, no detail) and below zone II in digital, I may have some shadow detail, but the accompanying noise is not worth bringing it out, especially when printing. So, I leave it.

It would seem that staying between II and VIII would be the best compromise as I can always move into zone 0 and I or VIII or X, even though 0 and 10 would not necessarily be desirable for a large scene.

Really, just need to go out and pull the trigger on some frames!

[Drew Wiley]

What counts with color film is not abstract tonality - shades of gray as in black and white, but what kind of hue reproduction you are after. Traqnsparency film is easier because after it's developed, you can simply slap it on a lightbox and immediately see if you're in the ballpark or not. Color neg film requires
either printing or scanning to get to that point. But either way, it still takes some experience to learn what kind of exposure leads to an articulate print
containing the colors you had in mind. At a certain point, those of us who routinely shot chrome film simply subconsciously gravitated towards friendly moderate-contrast scenes, or else intuitively knew what we could sacrifice, typically deep shadows. There are not many slide films left. Provia is good
from around Z III to VII; but that doesn't mean you'll get good color over that entire range. Pan F is an example of a black and white film with a similarly
limited dynamic range. Most popular black and white films stretch from II to VIII, and a few specialized ones well past that, even from I to XII. I am referring to this in terms of their native scale, and not to "minus" or compensating development tricks which compress the subject illuminance range at the
expense of intermediate tonality. Since hue reproduction is a non-issue in black and white work, you can get away with all kinds of things you can't in color.