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Thread: Comments on the Sinar P?

  1. #1

    Comments on the Sinar P?

    Anybody have any comments on the Sinar P 4x5? I've seen one for sale, but I'm unable to find any specifications on it. Also what's the accessory compatibility with the current line of Sinar stuff and is there much stuff available second hand?

    thanks,

    Indy.

  2. #2

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

    The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.

  3. #3

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Theodoros is essentially right. I will just add that the Sinar P is a heavy studio camera(I believe that the 4x5 version weighs around 14 pounds), so probably not the not the easiest choice for field work or traveling. Unless, of course, your budget includes an assistant.

  4. #4

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    There are some more that one should consider with the Sinar P-X series of cameras... They all have much the same standards and thus can be converted from one to another by just changing frames and bellows...
    Thus, one can have his P as 4x5 or 8x10, change it back from 8X10 to 4x5 within seconds, then change it to P3 and then from P3 back to 8x10 within seconds.... It even can be converted to P-DSLR (again within seconds) and work with FF DSLRs or mirrorless on the rear standards...

    All in all, the P/X -series and the Arca Monolith are the only (forgive me if I miss another) cameras in the market that can work with a mirrorless, a mirrorbox DSLR, an MFDB, 120 film and sheet film of any size...
    Additionally those two (the P series and the Monolith) are among the very few cameras in the market that have all shift and up-down mechanisms below the swing & tilt ones making it easy for one to have his camera for completely yaw free operation (as long as one cares to have a simple conversion for each lens board he uses so that the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc's radius and cares to position the image area on the tilt arc's center on the rear frame)...

  5. #5

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoros View Post
    Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

    The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.
    Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.
    Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.
    Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
    90.

    There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
    It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.
    Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.

  6. #6

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.
    No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.
    ...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
    90.
    ...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
    It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.
    No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.
    Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...

  7. #7

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoros View Post
    No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.

    ...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...


    ...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...



    No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...



    Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...
    Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.

    Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.

  8. #8

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.
    Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post

    Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.
    Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.

  9. #9

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoros View Post
    (as long as one cares to have a simple conversion for each lens board he uses so that the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc's radius and cares to position the image area on the tilt arc's center on the rear frame)...
    Theoretically 100% correct. But just mounting your lenses on plain old Sinar lens boards will work most of the time for most of your shots as long as your movements are not extreme. Have done it this way with Sinars since the 1980s. Willing to bet most of Sinar P users simply do it this way. Few years ago reverted back to Sinar Norma systems (4x5 & 8x10). Bit more compact and personally more of a pleasure to use in the field.

  10. #10

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    Re: Comments on the Sinar P?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoros View Post
    Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?

    Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.
    I thought you said that you were an astronaught. If so, then you know Bob Cabana. Google him and learn. I taught him, and his fellow crew members, how to use the Rollei 6008 on the Space Shuttle. Also how to use the Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL on those missions as well.

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