Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

  1. #1

    Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    Hi there hoping you guys can help, have recently acquired a Watson & Sons studio camera, our first job is to clean off the years of grime which on the wood and brass is coming along quite nicely. Although this is going to take a while we are already looking at the bellows, which are not of the leather variety. They seem in fine condition for their age but where they have been stored partially open when you extend the bellows the sun fading becomes very obvious.

    So our question is a) do you try and renovate the bellows or just accept that this is part of its age and b) if the answer is to renovate what would you suggest, all the things i have seen so far relate only to leather bellows not these card/fabric types.

    Please be gentle with me I am VERY new to this.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    This is exactly the kind of bellows material you would expect to find on a UK made studio camera which was made for functionality, rather than the obvious glamour of russian leather. I imagine the bellows is square, rather than tapered, and the folds/corners are square too, rather than angled? And the finish is grey or black?

    I have a couple of these. The inside is stout cloth, coloured black. The next layer is card, which is not coloured, and the final layer is either a thin paper dressing or, extremely thin leather (which doesn't look like leather!) having an embossed pattern.

    Whatever the layers, they are glued together with water soluble paste/glue which means treatment of the outside with a water/spirit based black stain has to be done with a minimum of liquid or the layers will "sail apart"!

    A couple of photos would help/confirm I am suggesting something appropriate.

  3. #3

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    Steven, Sounds like you know exactly what type of camera I have! attempting to attach some pictures ..... I hope they show the discoloration etcClick image for larger version. 

Name:	P1220935.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	66.7 KB 
ID:	167180Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1220936.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	49.3 KB 
ID:	167181Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1220937.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	43.0 KB 
ID:	167182Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1220938.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	44.0 KB 
ID:	167183

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    I have seen this camera before, I think! Within the last two weeks? I think it has two middle stages in the bellows to increase stability. The bellows have heavy canvas exterior skin which is in very good condition. Woodwork is very simple, which suggests a date of around 1880 +.

    There is character with the way it looks now, in my view. A black commercial stain for leather (in methyl alcohol) is readily available - which would do the trick. Obviously, you would try with the underneath side first. If you posted a photo of the back, it might help put a date/usage on the camera. The bellows are originally glued to the standards with water based paste, so should be removable for cleaning and, perhaps staining.

    Watson was responsible for many quality cameras, but how many he actually made himself is unknown. But he is known for having a workshop.

    I can confirm that the camera was made between around 1880 and 1883. The name is viewable on the ebay listing and gives the maker as " Watson & Son" - this became " Watson & Sons" in 1883!

    The Studio Stand it is on, is also a very early one. As solid as a gun mounting!
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 12-Jul-2017 at 13:28.

  5. #5

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    Thanks Steve, that is indeed the camera that I am sitting here looking at. It was found in the print works of the Hinckley Times when the building was demolished back in the 70's, the guy who owned it since then worked for the demolition people. It certainly wouldnt have been portable its huge and weighs a ton but perhaps they had some sort of studio.

    It does have two middle stages although there seems to be some sag to the bellows so we wondered if there might have been some additional support? Its also missing what i will call the focusing screen and holder (sure it must have a better name than that lol) and i dont know what i am going to do about replacing/sourcing a new one, but i do have one dark slide (numbered 3 and 4 annoyingly) so i know there should have been at least one other. The camera is numbered 13384 in case you are interested.

    I am very familiar with Watsons business as William who founded the business was my husbands 3 x great grandfather. Helpfully the changing names of the business ( William Watson, Watson & Son, Watson & Sons, Watson & Sons Ltd) means that getting a date on this is fairly straight forward. The listing was incorrect in its description as its label is Watson & Sons so made 1883 or later. From our research we are confident the Watsons did make the cameras along with magic lanterns, microscopes and telescopes as well as a huge array of mad medical items. We know a fair bit about the microscopy etc but we are new to large format, actually any, photography and hence joining the forum here.

    Thanks for your tip on dying the bellows your comment about removing them makes me very nervous i think to start with we are going to stick with cleaning off the years of dust and dirt and giving it some tlc along with a good does of wax to feed the timber. Once we have done that we can stand back and decide whether or not we should dye them. In the meantime i guess i also will have to start looking out for a lens!

    Thanks again for your comments most helpful

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    First, an extra congratulations on now owning a piece of Family history!

    I know how you feel, as I have a small collection from my great great grandfather's Sports Shop (John Webber & Sons) in Exeter. He patented and made items in a back street in Exeter. Fortunately, a lot smaller than a Studio Portrait set! Things like Fly boxes for Anglers!

    It seems quite logical that this set ended up at a newspaper concern. These local newspapers were often invoved in general printing and reproduction so would have had use for a "process camera". Towards the end of the 19th C. , special cameras were made - even larger - and often afixed to rails and long tables. But a studio set would also serve well.

    I have around 5 of these sets. So many because of the early lenses which were included! What you paid is absolutely the right price - they get to be very expensive with an original lens included (3 x as much).

    The sagging bellows will sag for ever as it is very heavy with this design. But there is an easy solution! A lot of later cameras (10 years later) had a smart support system under neath. It is possible your camera had it too, but it has been removed. There was a series of thin slats the width of the camera - about 4 - just wide enough to rest on the base and support the underside of the bellows. The slats are joined together at the ends and first and last slat ends are fixed to the front and rear wooden standards. The slats are folded together when the bellows are at a minimum and are streched out, giving support to every single bellows fold, when the bellows are pulled out. I'll post photos later.

    The missing back is not too serious. Almost all these cameras have been adapted in the period 1890 - 1930 due to advances in film emulsions. I may be able to help you when you decide on a format. The (probably) original plate holder is of standard type and you may be able to get extras. If you open up the book holder and measure the dimensions of the glass plate which fitted (inches!) I can tell you more.

  7. #7

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    Wow very impressed your ancestor made fly boxes, we have never tried fly fishing but both love coarse fishing its a wonderful area to collect.

    its nice to hear you think we paid a fair price for our camera too, we had never seen one this size before so didnt really have a clue, we just had to go with a gut feeling.

    I love the idea of supporting the bellows and would love to see some pictures, i get that the weight will always be an issue given the size but it will be nice to give it some support in its old age

    with regards to the back we feel we would like to keep it as close to the original design as possible however we know that if you had bought this from watsons and then gone back to them 20 years later they would have thought nothing of selling you some sort of upgrade or adaptation were it available as watsons were excellent at selling the latest thing going. So although original would be nice we are open to ideas and suggestions and ultimately would like to be able to take a picture or two with it (note to self book some sort of class in order to do this). When you open the book the dimension of the plate would have been 12 x 15 inches which from the catalogue is the largest standard size they offered.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Tonopah, Nevada, USA

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    I would leave alone. Just me, but I enjoy the patina of age on working artifacts. I'll even endure a few pinholes. Simply throwing the focus cloth over the worn bellows during exposure takes care of a multitude of sins. Everyone is different though.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    Do you have a catalogue which covers Watson's Studio camera?

    15x12" is the usual largest size, but most studio cameras went up to full plate, 10x8 or 12x10". I think your 15x12" book holder is probably not part of the original equipment. Studio plate holders were usually single sided and loaded through the back.

    I have a photo of the concertina slats underneath one of my studio cameras. These slats are quite thick compared with another one I have, which works just as well.
    I enclose another photo of a different system which has a single "stiffener" frame, elongated to get support from base.
    I have seen a third system which has a light metal frame attached to the stiffened sections with toylike wheels which move with the bellows. It is possible your middle supports have the remains of this system as I just can't see this heavy duty bellows not having a sag from new!

    I absolutely agree with Jim Galli's suggestion that you accept the sun bleeching of the bellows as age patina. It looks 100% perfect, by the way!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpeg   image.jpeg  
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 15-Jul-2017 at 01:00.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Bellows renovation to do or not? (NOT LEATHER)

    I have attempted to find an illustrated account of the variety of camera backs that were employed in these large Studio Cameras - without success! If anyone does know of an account (Something like Vaubel's analysis of early american field cameras) I, for one would be delighted! Your description of how backs could be upgraded - more often, though, downgraded to. smaller negative sizes - by purchasing alternative backs from the manufacturer, is quite correct! The most succesful maker was Century, quickly bought by Kodak who produced basically the same models for many decades.

    There were basically 3 major types of back, I think.

    - the very early ones had slide in - slide up frames for the ground glass and single glass plate holders. The plate holders were square so the glass plates could be mounted either horiz. or vert. Loading was through a back door. These were used with both wet and dry plates. These are quite common, though often not as complete sets (back, gg frame and numbers of plate holders).

    - varieties of sliding backs became popular. The gg could be pushed to one side and the plate holder moved into position. This system was maintained by Kodak until WW2 at least. The system as developed with lots of brass catches, so that the photographer could select how many different images he could take on a single glass plate/film.
    The photo of a commercial sliding back is from the Kodak catalogue of 1934. The other photo is of a more simple back of this type, where the GG back folds down out of the way of plate holders.

    - the last type is a simple spring held Ground Glass back. The Plate holder is inserted under the ground glass, once composition/focussing has been completed. In other word, the same system as modern field cameras.

    Studio Photographers in small towns were often not wealthy members of the community, so surviving sets often signs of DIY modifications using softwood and nails!

    THis is not meant to be a comprehensive guide!

    I don't think this set would have been used for 15x12" unless it has always been used for some sort of "process" photography - like recording items in a museum, or an art collection. In which case, it would have used a RR type lens.
    Much lower weight and much lower cost these days! A Portrait Petzval lens covering 15x12" would cost you, at least 2,500 ukp and weigh over 5 kilos. By comparison, a similar covering full plate size (quite a big size in the late 1800's) would be under 1,000 ukp for a quality name. They are cheaper because it is that size that was actually sold and used.

    So my suggestion would be:

    Renovate the wood - after removing the bellows (be brave!)
    Renovate the stand. Looks good - perhaps just oiling the gears.
    Decide the format. Purchase a set (not expensive).
    Buy a suitable lens. The LFPF buy/sell is the best place (Reliable information and realistic prices, garantee etc.).
    Make a lens board.

    Meanwhile, you can check out types of film, development systems and so on!
    I! personally
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpeg   image.jpeg  

Similar Threads

  1. Best leather cream for arca swiss leather bellows?
    By l2oBiN in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 7-Jan-2012, 16:49
  2. Leather or Synthetic Bellows?
    By Geoffsco in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 7-Sep-2011, 16:44
  3. Oil leather bellows Technika III ?
    By Cor in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 18-Apr-2011, 14:44
  4. Best way to restore leather bellows?
    By Rob_5419 in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-Jan-2008, 16:22
  5. Maintaining a Leather Bellows
    By Bill Lindley in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 4-May-1999, 09:44

Tags for this Thread


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts