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Thread: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

  1. #31

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by fralexis View Post
    Macmaster27,

    I have been in the same place as you. I have been shooting film for years but LF is a new game. I received so much information on this subject that my head began to swim. I did all the tests and calibrations. Many of those who offered suggestions were very helpful. But before you begin so many technical tests I would urge you to do something just for the fun of it. Take a few sheets of film, shoot it at half the box speed and try to take some good exposure measurements. I simply spot meter the dark shadows and place that at zone 3. Then look at the results. You will be surprised to find some nice photographs. Of course there are countless variables but I advise not to become discouraged by the technical elements. Take some nice photos and then after you have confidence in about 20 shots, start thinking about technical details. My 2 cents.
    I appreciate your comments. I totally agree. I have shot about half a box now and everything is getting easier. One thing that I had to realize is that even if two folks were to expose the same, they probably have two different developing styles. Recently it was recommended to try a prewash before developing. This seemed to really help keep the highlights in check which was an issue for me. I just have to work on my timing with the developer. It's all fun and I have already made some really nice prints, even one at 40x50. Thanks!

    Spencer

  2. #32

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by macmaster77 View Post
    Doremus,

    I appreciate you taking the time for replying and the constructive thoughts. I figured there was something that I was missing. I took your suggestions and since we have the same conditions today, I metered as you suggested. Here is what I came up with:

    Spot Meter: (ISO 100)
    Open Blue Sky: 1/15@f/45
    White Cloud Tops: 1/30@f/45
    Light Shade: 1/2@f/45
    Deep Shade: 1"@f/45

    Using White Dome:
    Ambient (Full Sun): 1/8@f/45

    As others has suggested, I would use 1/8@f/45? Just to see what would happen, I did an average of the cloud top against the light shade (instead of the deep shade that I did yesterday) and the meter came back with 1/8@f/45. This put the brightest scene at +2 and the lighter shade at -2. This is the magical 5 stops that everyone is talking about I guess. What I exposed for yesterday was 1/2@f/45, hence this was two stops overexposed.

    I do think that the other part of the equation is that I need a red filter to make the blue sky darker to make the clouds pop. Would something like this work: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Light_Red.html

    I appreciate your help on this. Thanks!

    Spencer
    Hi Spencer!

    I know I'm late to the party, and it sounds like you've got things worked out. (Plus Doremus and others have given you some excellent advice.) I just wanted to point out three things:
    1. Given the meter readings in your example here, you've got a really usable dynamic range, six stops from deep shade to cloud tops. That's really quite workable.
    2. You are entirely correct, a red filter will make the clouds pop. Remember to increase exposure by at least a stop. If you want blue skies to read as blue (really gray), you need at least a k-2 yellow filter.
    3. You are used to working with digital, right? Me too. I spent a lot of time trying not to blow out the highlights with no detail, but I can usually pull something useful out of the shadows. Think about film as totally opposite: you must not blow out the shadows by underexposing them. Meter for the shadows, expose for the shadows. After a while you can "see" where the shadows will fall on a gray scale. That's Zone System thinking.
    To pull detail out of the highlights, to pull them down where you can see them, you reduce development time. Or dilute. Or reduce contrast in the paper. Or carefully shade the paper in the enlarger so the white parts aren't so white. But to make things easy, just develop less.

    If all that sounds like use a k-2 filter, and treat your film as half the box speed (iso 50 instead of 100), and develop N-1 most of the time, that's about right. You can do tests to make sure you are developing for the "right" N-1, including plotting highlight densities, and so on, but for me that's more about getting the darkroom stuff to be easily repeatable.

    This part is strictly my mostly uninformed opinion:
    I think the fastest way to get everything dialed in is to use a 35mm camera and shoot at least two rolls of film, with the exact filter and meter you usually would use. Meter whatever way you like, so long as it's consistent, and shoot 5 or 7 frames of the same thing, under the same light. Bracket those shots: one, two, three stops underexposed, one right on, one, two, three shots overexposed. Do whatever you want with the rest of the roll, and then shoot the exact same thing the exact same way with the second roll. When you develop the film, develop one at n-1, and the other the normal way. Make some prints, and out of all the frames, pick the ones that have the "right" exposure and "right" development. Go back and see what metering you used to get it right, and always use that metering in that light. That's your truth.

    Good luck, and good light,
    Will
    Last edited by Will Frostmill; 28-Nov-2016 at 08:43. Reason: made it less wrong ;)

  3. #33

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Frostmill View Post
    Hi Spencer!

    I know I'm late to the party, and it sounds like you've got things worked out. (Plus Doremus and others have given you some excellent advice.) I just wanted to point out three things:
    1. Given the meter readings in your example here, you've got a really usable dynamic range, six stops from deep shade to cloud tops. That's really quite workable.
    2. You are entirely correct, a red filter will make the clouds pop. Remember to increase exposure by at least a stop. If you want blue skies to read as blue (really gray), you need at least a k-2 yellow filter.
    3. You are used to working with digital, right? Me too. I spent a lot of time trying not to blow out the highlights with no detail, but I can usually pull something useful out of the shadows. Think about film as totally opposite: you must not blow out the shadows by underexposing them. Meter for the shadows, expose for the shadows. After a while you can "see" where the shadows will fall on a gray scale. That's Zone System thinking.
    To pull detail out of the highlights, to pull them down where you can see them, you reduce development time. Or dilute. Or reduce contrast in the paper. Or carefully shade the paper in the enlarger so the white parts aren't so white. But to make things easy, just develop less.

    If all that sounds like use a k-2 filter, and treat your film as half the box speed (iso 50 instead of 100), and develop N-1 most of the time, that's about right. You can do tests to make sure you are developing for the "right" N-1, including plotting highlight densities, and so on, but for me that's more about getting the darkroom stuff to be easily repeatable.

    This part is strictly my mostly uninformed opinion:
    I think the fastest way to get everything dialed in is to use a 35mm camera and shoot at least two rolls of film, with the exact filter and meter you usually would use. Meter whatever way you like, so long as it's consistent, and shoot 5 or 7 frames of the same thing, under the same light. Bracket those shots: one, two, three stops underexposed, one right on, one, two, three shots overexposed. Do whatever you want with the rest of the roll, and then shoot the exact same thing the exact same way with the second roll. When you develop the film, develop one at n-1, and the other the normal way. Make some prints, and out of all the frames, pick the ones that have the "right" exposure and "right" development. Go back and see what metering you used to get it right, and always use that metering in that light. That's your truth.

    Good luck, and good light,
    Will
    Will,

    I really appreciate your help with this. It's slowly coming together. One thing that was recommend to try and slow down the highlights is to do a prewash and then put the developer in. I did this on my last print and it did seem to help. I did buy an orange and red filter. I have tried the orange filter a couple of times and it has helped. It does seems strange to not worry so much about the highlights after all these years. I do spot meter the shadows where I want detail in and the brightest highlights in and use the average on the meter to get an idea if I'm in the five stop range or not.

    I just photographed a white and brown lighthouse. I checked the white against the dark shadows and I was at five stops. Then some tourists stared walking on the porch so I had to wait, at sunset of course. When I developed the negatives, they were two stops under exposed. I think part of this may be due to the prewash and I was told to cut the developer in half, again to slow down the highlights. In the end, I was able to make it work.

    Lots of learning to do still. No matter what, it's a fun ride. The camera has also allowed me to talk with folks that otherwise I wouldn't have seen as they came up and wanted to check out the camera. I'll keep my progress in the loop here. Thanks!

    Spencer

  4. #34
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Question Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by macmaster77 View Post
    I was told to cut the developer in half
    What does that mean ???

    A - reduce the developing time by 50% ?
    B - reduce the developer volume by 50% ?
    C - reduce the amount of concentrate used when mixing the working developer by 50% ?

    Highlight density is easily controlled by reducing development time.

    - Leigh
    If you believe you can, or you believe you can't... you're right.

  5. #35

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    What does that mean ???

    A - reduce the developing time by 50% ?
    B - reduce the developer volume by 50% ?
    C - reduce the amount of concentrate used when mixing the working developer by 50% ?

    Highlight density is easily controlled by reducing development time.

    - Leigh
    I went from 6 ounces to 3 ounces. Same dilution. Ilfosol 3 @ 1+14

  6. #36
    multiplex
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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    macmaster77,
    i hate to ask this, but do you have a reducing back for your camera?
    film is film, whether it is 8x10 tmy or 4x5 tmy
    you might consider using a reducing back to reduce the cost of your
    learning curve. a sheet of 8x10 is pretty expensive to be learning the
    nuances of meter reading+processing.
    you might consider tanks and hangers, or tray processing as well ..

    good luck with your new camera !
    john

  7. #37
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by macmaster77 View Post
    I made sure the developer was at 78°F/20°C.
    So what temperature is your developer... 78°F or 20°C ???

    20°C = 68°F, not 78°F.

    - Leigh
    If you believe you can, or you believe you can't... you're right.

  8. #38

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    macmaster77,
    i hate to ask this, but do you have a reducing back for your camera?
    film is film, whether it is 8x10 tmy or 4x5 tmy
    you might consider using a reducing back to reduce the cost of your
    learning curve. a sheet of 8x10 is pretty expensive to be learning the
    nuances of meter reading+processing.
    you might consider tanks and hangers, or tray processing as well ..

    good luck with your new camera !
    john
    I don't have a reducing back for my camera yet. I figure it's the cost of learning. I find black and white isn't expensive compared to what some are paying for color. Stearman Press is working on a tank for 8x10 that I'm going to give a go once they have it completed. Thanks.

  9. #39

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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    So what temperature is your developer... 78°F or 20°C ???

    20°C = 68°F, not 78°F.

    - Leigh
    I use a thermometer and make sure it's 68F when I start. Thanks!

  10. #40
    Pastafarian supremo Rick A's Avatar
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    Re: Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

    Quote Originally Posted by macmaster77 View Post
    Will,

    I really appreciate your help with this. It's slowly coming together. One thing that was recommend to try and slow down the highlights is to do a prewash and then put the developer in. I did this on my last print and it did seem to help. I did buy an orange and red filter. I have tried the orange filter a couple of times and it has helped. It does seems strange to not worry so much about the highlights after all these years. I do spot meter the shadows where I want detail in and the brightest highlights in and use the average on the meter to get an idea if I'm in the five stop range or not.

    I just photographed a white and brown lighthouse. I checked the white against the dark shadows and I was at five stops. Then some tourists stared walking on the porch so I had to wait, at sunset of course. When I developed the negatives, they were two stops under exposed. I think part of this may be due to the prewash and I was told to cut the developer in half, again to slow down the highlights. In the end, I was able to make it work.

    Lots of learning to do still. No matter what, it's a fun ride. The camera has also allowed me to talk with folks that otherwise I wouldn't have seen as they came up and wanted to check out the camera. I'll keep my progress in the loop here. Thanks!

    Spencer
    Your under exposure was most likely caused by not adding in the filter factor to your exposure settings. Using an orange usually needs two more stops exposure(or there about depending on filter) check the filter factor number on the filter ring for this. It may read x4 (2x2=4), which is two stops. Red filters usually read x8 which is three stops(2x2x2=8).
    Rick Allen

    Argentum Aevum

    practicing Pastafarian

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