Newbie Needs help on B&W film developing...

[macmaster77]

For those who recommend to forget the Zone Sustem, how do you meter the scene and then do you develop per the manufacturer times?

[Leigh]

For those who recommend to forget the Zone Sustem, how do you meter the scene and then do you develop per the manufacturer times?

If I may observe...
You're a first-grader trying to write a doctoral thesis.

Perfect your workflow using basics, then get complicated.

First, the exposure... Use an incident meter to read sunlight.

A normal scene should be close to the "sunny 16 rule"... shutter speed = reciprocal of film speed at f/16.
If your scene has higher-than normal reflectivity, close down 1 stop to f/22, or 2 stops for a beach scene.

Develop normally per the manufacturer's instructions.

Forget about the Zone system.
ZS requires extensive calibration of your entire print-making process, from film exposure through printing.

Get to the point of making good prints of normal subjects using normal times and techniques.
Then consider using the ZS.

- Leigh

[Doremus Scudder]

macmaster77,

I don't think you are making things too complicated; however, I do think you are missing some of the basics.

First, let's discuss your sky with "no detail." In the situation you've described, the sky is getting adequate exposure (and development too, probably). If there is "no detail," by which I assume you mean no texture, just blank white, then a) there was simply not much contrast in an evenly cloudy sky, or b) there is detail in the negative, but you need to burn in the sky a bit (maybe using a higher contrast setting/grade). Using a filter to separate blue sky from white clouds is common. You can see if this is needed by simply spot metering the sky and clouds. If they read the same, they're going to turn out the same in the print...

You need to realize that you're never going to get much detail in the print when it's not there in the original scene. Hazy, bright overcast skies have very little detail in them. Learn to see this and recognize it. Remember, the Zone System is primarily a visualization tool; use your knowledge and experience to imagine how your final print will look. How you want something to look and how it really will are two different things.

About exposure: The classic rule is "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights." Forget about reading high/low and averaging (that results in underexposure in contrasty situations). Read the shadow and find an exposure that puts the shadow where you want it: Zone III for "detailed black," Zone IV for "luminous shade," Zone I or II for varying degrees of black, etc. Then see where the highlight values fall and reduce or increase development from "normal" if needed, keeping in mind that you have a bit of contrast control with paper grades. This kind of metering is basic and simple; one reading to determine exposure, another to determine development.

In the situation you describe, you ended up giving a stop too much exposure. Your problem is likely trying to figure -3 or +3 stops from the center. See if you can find a Zone sticker for your meter; that will simplify things. If not, then work with stops of difference between high and low. Zone III to Zone VIII is 5 stops difference, and is a "normal" spread. 6-7 stops difference are contrasty scenes, 3-4 stops difference are flat scenes. Remember, whether you want to adjust development for scenes other than normal depends on how much leeway you have adjusting contrast while printing. Many are happy developing normally and using contrast settings to get the print they want.

If you want to use the Zone System, then you have to do a bit of testing to find your N, N+ and N- developments. This doesn't have to be as complicated as many make it. Simply rate your film 2/3 stop lower than box speed, make a few negs of a "normal" scene, develop one at recommended time, one at 20% more and one at 20% less. Make straight prints on an intermediate contrast grade and choose (or extrapolate) a development time that will yield the best straight print. That's way good enough for starters. Repeat the same thing for N+ and N-. Then, keep good notes and tweak development times as needed. Remember, you just need to get a printable neg; you've got a few zones of contrast adjustment available in the form of paper contrast settings.

If you're scanning and not printing, there are comparable digital adjustments.

Best,

Doremus

[TrentM]

Here in south Fl the lighting is very contrasty. Minus development becomes the norm when shooting our big stacked cumulus clouds. Also, you are developing at 78 F at those times? Try working at lower developing temps. Many developers "behave" differently at lower temps: use 68-74 F range.

[Huub]

When i look at the scans you included a couple of posts back, i do see some detail in the sky. When i assume that the other scan included some of the darkest parts of the picture i don't see much black and dark shadows. My guess is that the negatives are over exposed by at least a stop and that you need some dodging and burning to get a good print. Nothing wrong there and even among accomplised printers that is business as usual. Negatives that print well on grade 2 or 3 without any manipulation are pretty rare, even among people with loads of experience.

My advise would be to look in your area for some workshop on the zonesystem or find someone to help you around and show some tricks of the trade. Working with some more experienced folks will be loads of fun and you will be learning more of it then by reading tons of treads on the net.

[macmaster77]

Here in south Fl the lighting is very contrasty. Minus development becomes the norm when shooting our big stacked cumulus clouds. Also, you are developing at 78 F at those times? Try working at lower developing temps. Many developers "behave" differently at lower temps: use 68-74 F range.

You are very correct on the lighting here in FL, that is why I'm trying to wrestle with the dynamic range as I know this is going to be a challenge most days. To keep what I'm doing constant, I keep the developer at 68°F/20°C. I use a thermometer to check for accuracy. Thanks for your input.

[macmaster77]

When i look at the scans you included a couple of posts back, i do see some detail in the sky. When i assume that the other scan included some of the darkest parts of the picture i don't see much black and dark shadows. My guess is that the negatives are over exposed by at least a stop and that you need some dodging and burning to get a good print. Nothing wrong there and even among accomplised printers that is business as usual. Negatives that print well on grade 2 or 3 without any manipulation are pretty rare, even among people with loads of experience.

My advise would be to look in your area for some workshop on the zonesystem or find someone to help you around and show some tricks of the trade. Working with some more experienced folks will be loads of fun and you will be learning more of it then by reading tons of treads on the net.

You are correct, I was talking to someone and they said that they were over exposed by two stops. I would love to take a workshop or classes on this (ironically I'm a teacher for digital photography at our local college extension) however, I have yet to find anyone that shoots LF or film for that matter, I'll keep looking. Thanks!

[macmaster77]

macmaster77,

I don't think you are making things too complicated; however, I do think you are missing some of the basics.

First, let's discuss your sky with "no detail." In the situation you've described, the sky is getting adequate exposure (and development too, probably). If there is "no detail," by which I assume you mean no texture, just blank white, then a) there was simply not much contrast in an evenly cloudy sky, or b) there is detail in the negative, but you need to burn in the sky a bit (maybe using a higher contrast setting/grade). Using a filter to separate blue sky from white clouds is common. You can see if this is needed by simply spot metering the sky and clouds. If they read the same, they're going to turn out the same in the print...

You need to realize that you're never going to get much detail in the print when it's not there in the original scene. Hazy, bright overcast skies have very little detail in them. Learn to see this and recognize it. Remember, the Zone System is primarily a visualization tool; use your knowledge and experience to imagine how your final print will look. How you want something to look and how it really will are two different things.

About exposure: The classic rule is "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights." Forget about reading high/low and averaging (that results in underexposure in contrasty situations). Read the shadow and find an exposure that puts the shadow where you want it: Zone III for "detailed black," Zone IV for "luminous shade," Zone I or II for varying degrees of black, etc. Then see where the highlight values fall and reduce or increase development from "normal" if needed, keeping in mind that you have a bit of contrast control with paper grades. This kind of metering is basic and simple; one reading to determine exposure, another to determine development.

In the situation you describe, you ended up giving a stop too much exposure. Your problem is likely trying to figure -3 or +3 stops from the center. See if you can find a Zone sticker for your meter; that will simplify things. If not, then work with stops of difference between high and low. Zone III to Zone VIII is 5 stops difference, and is a "normal" spread. 6-7 stops difference are contrasty scenes, 3-4 stops difference are flat scenes. Remember, whether you want to adjust development for scenes other than normal depends on how much leeway you have adjusting contrast while printing. Many are happy developing normally and using contrast settings to get the print they want.

If you want to use the Zone System, then you have to do a bit of testing to find your N, N+ and N- developments. This doesn't have to be as complicated as many make it. Simply rate your film 2/3 stop lower than box speed, make a few negs of a "normal" scene, develop one at recommended time, one at 20% more and one at 20% less. Make straight prints on an intermediate contrast grade and choose (or extrapolate) a development time that will yield the best straight print. That's way good enough for starters. Repeat the same thing for N+ and N-. Then, keep good notes and tweak development times as needed. Remember, you just need to get a printable neg; you've got a few zones of contrast adjustment available in the form of paper contrast settings.

If you're scanning and not printing, there are comparable digital adjustments.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus,

I appreciate you taking the time for replying and the constructive thoughts. I figured there was something that I was missing. I took your suggestions and since we have the same conditions today, I metered as you suggested. Here is what I came up with:

Spot Meter: (ISO 100)
Open Blue Sky: 1/15@f/45
White Cloud Tops: 1/30@f/45
Light Shade: 1/2@f/45
Deep Shade: 1"@f/45

Using White Dome:
Ambient (Full Sun): 1/8@f/45

As others has suggested, I would use 1/8@f/45? Just to see what would happen, I did an average of the cloud top against the light shade (instead of the deep shade that I did yesterday) and the meter came back with 1/8@f/45. This put the brightest scene at +2 and the lighter shade at -2. This is the magical 5 stops that everyone is talking about I guess. What I exposed for yesterday was 1/2@f/45, hence this was two stops overexposed.

I do think that the other part of the equation is that I need a red filter to make the blue sky darker to make the clouds pop. Would something like this work: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Light_Red.html

I appreciate your help on this. Thanks!

Spencer

[Jac@stafford.net]

Remember that colored filters require color in the scene to work. If the sky is overcast grey, a contrasting filter will hardly work.

Red filters often create overall harsh contrast.

A K2 or orange filter might be better.

[Fred L]

What everyone said about the Zone system. For most work I use a Sekonic incident meter but will us a spotmeter if the situation warrants. I think unless you dial down on film and processing, there's absolutely no use of using the Z system, esp for someone new to developing film. You've got to many balls in the air and they're all hitting thew ground I tried testing materials for using the ZS but found it too rigid and I guess I was partly too lazy as well.

Pick a film and a developer and try incident metering for now until you can learn to fine tune your processing and exposures.

and fwiw, you're brave jumping straight into 8x10