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Thread: Retouching negatives with pencil?

  1. #1
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    Retouching negatives with pencil?

    I would like to experiment with retouching negatives, and not having any easy source of red dye, I would like to start with just using number 2 pencil. I seem to remember reading that this was an accepted negative retouching technique. Is there any special touch to it? I haven't really read about retouching in the photo books that I have, such as the Ansel Adams trio. I guess he didn't do retouching?

    I was looking through my dad's 60s-70s era auto mechanics book, and the pictures all have a clearly retouched look to them. My old motorcycle manuals also had heavily retouched B&W pictures of the mechanical parts. I didn't understand what it was that was different about these pictures until I recently realized that they must have been retouched for emphasis of the individual parts in the picture. Is it possible to do this kind of retouching with pencil?
    Science is what we understand well enough to explain to a computer. Art is everything else we do.
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    Robert Hall's Avatar
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    One can use spotting dyes on negatives as well. As for the pencil, this is possible but difficult.

    If it is for larger areas, you might try using the pencil on a piece of vellum over the top of the negative on a light table. Then put the negative in the carrier with a piece of white plexy over the neg and the velum on top of the plexy making a kind of mask.

    Some people tape the negative to the plexy on the underneath side and the tape the velum on top. If that makes sense.

    I use the velum myself to make shading masks, but for touch up, I have some spotting dyes as well as red dye. The red dye is quite old but I think it can still be found, probably just not from Kodak.

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    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    Some kinds of film have a better retouching surface or more "tooth" than others on the back side. Real slippery films like TMax 100 and Delta 100 aren't very cooperative. Red dye is easier to use in such cases. If you can locate a single bottle of it, it will
    probably last a lifetime.

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    Robert Hall's Avatar
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    I believe you can find the red dye here....

    Crocein Scarlet Dye

    http://cgi.ebay.com/CROCEIN-SCARLET-...item4832dbe1c3

  5. #5
    Big Negs Rock!
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    My mother used to retouch the negs in my dad's studio in Hollywood. She worked on the base side where the neg had "tooth." Not sure if they're still manufactured that way now. She used light table that was like a small A frame easel. There was a powerful magnifying glass she could position. The lit area could be rotated in any direction. I used to have one of these, but it's long gone now.

    Good luck.
    Mark Woods

    Large Format B&W
    Cinematography Mentor at the American Film Institute
    Past President of the Pasadena Society of Artists
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    www.markwoods.com

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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    "Adams" retouching machines come up for sale on ebay from time to time.

    check craigslist.org too. A friend of mine has one, and uses it quite a bit, especially to justify the price tag($10 and had to drive 50mi each way to pick it up from an old-school studio closing down a few years back).

    easy to make one too. just use one of the tracing tables(or a larger lightbox) and some red watercolor on the base side. or use some of the red-scarlet stuff mentioned above.

    retouching's an art in itself IMO, manual negative retouching that is. PS is dead-easy with the clone-stamp tool

    -Dan

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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    If you are referring to the "highlighting" of edges in pictures of mechanical things, that would be relatively easy to do with pencil--assuming that you have a 4x5 or larger negative (it is possible on medium format, but a lot harder). A draftsman's lead holder along with a piece of folded sandpaper (for pointing the lead) and you are in business.

    There was at one time (I'm pretty sure it is discontinued now) a Kodak product which contained some sort of index-matched abrasive in a fast-drying lacquer. It was wiped onto the back side of conventional film to give enough "tooth" for pencil work. You can do a slight amount of pencil work on the emulsion side (not recommended--mistakes are pretty much irreversible) but pencil just won't take on glossy film base.

    Incidentally, many of those old Popular Mechanics pictures were probably retouched with a brush and dye, because the pencil point dulls too rapidly if there is a lot to be done. Where pencil really shines is in removing facial blemishes on portraits...

    There's nothing magical about Crocein Scarlet if you aren't doing large areas, where you want to be able to see and print through it. Spotone, or even diluted ink, work for jobs that pencil would do.

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    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    The dye is pretty damn easy to use because, dilute, you can layer it up bit by bit to
    the point where it's virtually seamless. With pencil, you have to be a little more careful
    as you build up. Or just tape in register a sheet of frosted mylar, which is easier to
    retouch than film base. Creosin dye can also be easily removed if necessary. Certainly
    easier in many cases than Photoshop, which requires a scan first. Don't be intimidated.

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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    The dye is pretty damn easy to use because, dilute, you can layer it up bit by bit to
    the point where it's virtually seamless. With pencil, you have to be a little more careful
    as you build up. Or just tape in register a sheet of frosted mylar, which is easier to
    retouch than film base. Creosin dye can also be easily removed if necessary. Certainly
    easier in many cases than Photoshop, which requires a scan first. Don't be intimidated.
    I guess I should look into the dye. I had anticipated it being hard to apply the dye so that the edges of the application weren't obvious, but I guess it's easier than I had imagined to 'feather' the stuff out. I also thought it was irreversible, but I guess not.
    Science is what we understand well enough to explain to a computer. Art is everything else we do.
    --A=B by Petkovšek et. al.

  10. #10
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Retouching negatives with pencil?

    I just clean off the dye if necessary with ordinary film cleaner. And it can be diluted
    any amount you wish, and layers up between dry coats without lifting the previous
    coat, so can be applied with considerable subtlety. Just use decent spotting or watercolor brushes. This is a big adavantage over pencil or even neutral dyes, although those kinds of tools are helpful for minor spotting problems. One option I dislike, however, are retouching lacquers. These allow one to provide a convenient amount of tooth to otherwise slick film surfaces, and are still available from art suppliers, but are irreversible and distinctly unhealthy to work with.

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