5x7 Madness: is it safe to use 1920's holders for critical work?

[Two23]

I've been shooting 4x5 for approaching 15 years now, and like the format. I especially like my wonderful little Chamonix! I've been doing some of my night/flash shots of trains using b&w film and love the results. In addition to the Chamonix I also have a gorgeous Century Camera No. 46 with Velostigmat in Volute shutter. I'm not posting about those, though. Last year I bought a Gundlach Korona from a member here. I have shot 4x5 with it--looks great with my 1920s vintage lenses! It's actually a 5x7 with a 4x5 back. When I got it I had no intention of ever using the 5x7 back. However, things change. Last month I was out in Maryland with my wife and together we took a few night shots of the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad running a steam engine at night. Wow, was that cool! I used my Nikon D800E with 24mm tilt/shift lens and five small Nikon SB -25 flash. I was ecstatic about the results!

WMSR:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96826069@N00/23661081336/in/dateposted-public/[/URL]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/968260...posted-public/


Ever since I started shooting trains at night ten years ago, my hero has been O. Winston Link. I'm finally getting consistenly good results taking these shots, feel I now at least understand (not mastered) how to use flash, and I'm comfortable using my 4x5 for once in a life time shots. I'm now thinking of returning to western MD this coming winter to take some shots using LF and b&w film. All the pieces have finally come together for me, my goal from ten years ago is within reach. I love my Chamonix--it's a terrific camera. However, I'm starting to think, "Why stop with 4x5? Wouldn't 5x7 be even better?" I really don't see much difference between using the Korona and the Chamonix, with one exception. The difference is DoF. My Nikon DSLR with 24mm lens has plenty. My Chamonix with 90mm is noticeably more limited. A 5x7 would have even less DoF. This is a problem because the amount of light I can generate and the ISO I can shoot at has limits. On the shot made above with the Nikon I used ISO 800 & f5.6. I've been shooting HP5 (@ 400) and f8 with the Chamonix but that's using big 1,300ws monolights. I am comfortable pushing HP5 to ISO 800, so I gain a stop there. It's possible to shoot ISO 800 and f11 with all eight monolights I have. They are bulky and heavy though! Bottom line is while I would LOVE to shoot the steamer with 5x7, I might be limited to just taking my 4x5 because I can do the shots with just ten Nikon SB-25 flash (I attach two per lightstand.) I intend to have negs drum scanned and I'd like to make a 40x60 in. print if everything were to come out OK. I think 4x5 is capable of that.

Now a final question. I do intend to buy some HP5 in 5x7 and get a couple of holders. I want to at least try 5x7 around the Dakotas. What do I have to lose? I already have an Epson v700, the camera, the lenses, and know how to use LF. I've been eyeing those c.1920s wooden 5x7 holders that are correct for the camera. Wouldn't those be just fine if I got film rather than plate holders? Or, is there an advantage for me to use more modern Fidelity or Lisco holders? I'd like to dip my toe in the water here. I was considering 8x10--those Seneca 8x10 with black & shiny nickel finish have tremendous appeal to me! However, the costs of 8x10 and the amount of flash I'd need for even a medium scaled image just seemed a bit out of reach.



Kent in SD

[Two23]

279 views, and not one person has any experience or thoughts about using c.1920s wooden holders?


Kent in SD

[LabRat]

If they seal well, and pass the light test, why not!?!!!

Steve K

[Ken Lee]

What LabRat said.

I use very old wooden holders in my 5x7 and prefer them to the modern ones. They are smoother to operate.

For that matter, the camera itself and some of my lenses date from that era. They all work fine.

[Oren Grad]

I've edited the thread title to highlight your question.

Other than the obvious question of light leaks, which is easy enough to test, the other issue will be alignment with the ground glass register. Given the size of the enlargements you would like to make, I would indeed worry about getting everything as close to right as possible. So you'd have to measure and test any specific set of holders you wanted to use, and either swap for others until you have a close match or, depending on the direction of the error, possibly shim the ground glass on your camera.

This just means that you can't assume any particular set of holders will work regardless of vintage or brand, and that it might take you a bit of work up front to get everything "dialed in", not that it's necessarily crazy to try. Given the dedication and skill you've demonstrated in pulling off your digital captures of this challenging subject, I wouldn't rule it out. It just depends on how much motivation and patience you have for further tinkering.

Good luck!

[LabRat]

I hope my answer didn't seem short and curt... But I (and MANY others) have been using whatever holders they can get their hands on for their format...

Check the wooden holder with a straight edge to make sure it's not warped, shine a bright flashlight into the light trap from inside to see if the trap is leaking, look carefully where the slide moves in the groove to see if there is no excessive wear or chipping, take a shop vac with a nozzle end and insert/remove the slide many times to suck up any loose lint from inside the trap, check the hinges for leaks and photo tape or recover with bookbinder's tape, if plastic slides, take off sharp edges with fine sanding block or steel wool (will slide better in without shredding inner grooves), then wash plastic dark slides well with dishwashing liquid, brush under film guides with a nylon brush and vac 'em out well (use a vac that has a drywall dust collection bag so it will not exhaust fine dust into the air where you are cleaning your holders), load some RC photo paper and leave 'em in the light for awhile, develop, and see if they leak, load with film, go out, and have a GREAT time!!!!!!

How's that???

Steve K

[Kevin Crisp]

In good shape, there is nothing wrong with old wooden holders. Check the dark slides for little impact stars which can leak light. If they have screws, disassemble and clean out the light trap felt. If they don't have screws blow out the dust from inside out. Retape the hinge as necessary. Make sure they fit and don't hang up just short of being fully inserted and down flat in the back. Some older ones are tighter than others on some cameras and if you use hinge tape that isn't very thin they are slightly too long.

At this age, sometimes the corners of the darkslides get worn or slightly chipped, cutting down the margin for light leak safety.

Personally I use holders that are from purchased new back to the 20's or 30's and I have never had a problem with any of them, provided I clean them and check them over before I start using them. I rarely shoot more open than f:22, so that is quite possibly masking or eliminating any practical issues with slight errors of registration on my holders. Some of the old ones are delightfully light weight.

I am also a fan of Winston O. Link. I believe his go to camera was one of the Graphic Views, 4X5 of course.

[goamules]

...I do intend to buy some HP5 in 5x7 and get a couple of holders. I want to at least try 5x7 around the Dakotas. What do I have to lose? I already have an Epson v700, the camera, the lenses, and know how to use LF. I've been eyeing those c.1920s wooden 5x7 holders that are correct for the camera. Wouldn't those be just fine if I got film rather than plate holders? Or, is there an advantage for me to use more modern Fidelity or Lisco holders? I'd like to dip my toe in the water here. I was considering 8x10--those Seneca 8x10 with black & shiny nickel finish have tremendous appeal to me! However, the costs of 8x10 and the amount of flash I'd need for even a medium scaled image just seemed a bit out of reach.



Kent in SD

Good going Kent, I'm with you, I like being authentic! I've used wooden holders a lot with wetplate, and some film. They are usually light tight enough and work fine.

One thing I do with any holder is occasionally wax both the outside wood (with car paste wax), and the darkslide (with Lemon Pledge). Then I wax the holder rails on the camera. It's so nice to have a holder that doesn't jam up. The was usually lasts about 3-4 shooting sessions.

[Kevin Crisp]

Lemon pledge works. Also, for some reason, using Simple Green on them then rinsing and letting them dry off somehow makes them slide again just fine. Doesn't make a difference with modern ones but on that bakelight or whatever they used back then makes all the difference.

[mike rosenlof]

One issue I have had with very old 5x7 holders is that the little ridge light trap on the holder does not precisely fit into the corresponding "ditch" in the film back. This leads to light leaks, and means the film holder doesn't lie in the same plane as the GG. I haven't had errors due to the film plane, but have seen the light leaks.

I've had this problem on two different (relatively modern) 5x7 backs. One on a 5x7 adapter for a Wista SP, and the other on a Canham 5x7 (wood) back. Newer film holders, the metal handle type from the 50s (??) have all been fine.