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Thread: Question on movement orders

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Question on movement orders

    Greetings! I'm working my way toward getting into large format photography, and in the process of researching options for my first camera I've come across a question I haven't been able to find clear info on yet.

    My goal is to get myself a 4x5 field camera setup for landscape and architectural photography, and I'm still stuck between deciding to buy an existing old camera to refurbish and to build a new custom one from scratch. One of the biggest factors that I'm unsure of is what I should really be looking for with regards to movement styles, and the impact of which movements are nested where. This is a little more important on the line of deciding to build my own as I then have full control over how things are done rather than simply accepting and adapting to whatever the setup is for a camera I buy.



    For example, you could have your shifts on the exterior with the tilts nested inside them. Tilting the film plane in that case would set it to whatever angle, but you still move that now tilted plane up and down in the original vertical plane if you apply shifts.

    Nesting shifts inside the tilts then mean that once tilted the shifts move the film along the new tilted plane, which in turn makes a very different movement pattern. Plus tilts being done from an edge vs tilt axis running through the centre of the plane seems to be another design choice that is going to slightly change how your workflow goes.



    I'm seeing a mixed bag of options while looking at different designs and watching videos of photographers employing various models of cameras, but I haven't come across any decent discussions on the order and such of how photographers prefer to have the camera setup for different movements. Lots of information on Tilts X + Shifts Y to get Effect Z, but far less conversation about arriving at a given tilt and shift while keeping your framing as you're imagining things.


    Do people feel that the mechanical order, whether tilting affects the plane of your shifts or not, really impacts how they work? And is this something that I really should be providing sketches with? (This really feels like a coffee and whiteboard kind of issue.)


    I've seen one field camera where the rear standard could be moved left and right as the outermost movement, then the tilts, and finally the 'vertical' shift would always be along the plane set by the two shifts. Mechanically this seems to produce a full movement range while being mechanically robust, but having the shifts on either side of the tilt mechanics also means that the vectors for shifting converge slightly if both shifts are applied.
    My background is in computer sciences, so it won't surprise me if I'm thinking too much about that issue.

    And I'm also not seeing much in the way of hard details on ranges involved. Obviously the more range the better for oddball edge cases, but the more demand gets placed on your lens's image circle and the camera's bellows. What do you feel is a minimum distance and angle for a given movement, and at what range do you feel you are unlikely to ever really worry about needing?


    Thanks for the input, and sorry if this is better suited for a different section of the forums.

  2. #2

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    The normal advice that we give newbies about which camera to buy first is to just buy an inexpensive camera and lens and spend your money on film. Most people including me do not keep their first camera because they learn what they like and don't like and then buy the camera that they want. Everyone is different on what their preferences are. What is a perfect camera to one person, another doesn't care for. Everyone on here has opinions. What matters is what you like.

    If you want to refinish an old camera that would be fine but I would not try to build one from scratch until you have quite a bit of experience shooting 4x5.

    Welcome to the forum!

  3. #3

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    Vinny Walsh built his own 8x10 field camera. It was quite a job but Vinny produced a fine camera. Click on the picture to see more.

    http://www.vinnywalsh.com/#!camera/c65q

  4. #4

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    What about swings?

  5. #5
    Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Question on movement orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Gales View Post
    The normal advice that we give newbies about which camera to buy first is to just buy an inexpensive camera and lens and spend your money on film. Most people including me do not keep their first camera because they learn what they like and don't like and then buy the camera that they want. Everyone is different on what their preferences are. What is a perfect camera to one person, another doesn't care for. Everyone on here has opinions. What matters is what you like. . . .
    Yes, indeed! Also, refer to as many manuals on using view cameras as possible. Different writers have different viewpoints and different ways of explaining. I have books (in alphabetical order) by Ansel Adams, Harvey Shaman, Steve Simmons, Leslie Stroebel, and Jim Stone. They don't have to be new to get you started.

    Handmade view cameras vary from as elegant as Vinny Walsh's, or as basic as Jay Bender's DIY kit http://www.jaybender.com/BPH/index.htm of years ago and Jon Grepstad's DIY design http://home.online.no/~gjon/large_format.htm. The difference between these basic DIY cameras and the best of manufactured view cameras is more a matter of convenience and elegance, not in the photographs they can produce.

  6. #6

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  7. #7

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    X2!

    It's a daunting task to find a perfect camera for both architecture and landscape work, you always have to give some preference for one kind or another - actually you can do both works with the same camera but it could have been a better choice to get the intended use in count of the camera design when choosing,
    At the end, it will have also the "available money factor" to drive your choice,

    Good look,

    Renato
    Last edited by RSalles; 14-Aug-2015 at 18:27. Reason: misstype

  8. #8

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    The most bang for your buck will be an old monorail in good condition. A Calumet 400-ish or GV/GVII. Expect to pay under $200 if you shop around. It may not be your ideal camera (or it may very well be) but it will give you a start and help you decide what features you just can't live without without spending a lot of loot and you should be able to recoup your investment if you decide to sell.
    The lens, film holders, tripod, etc... can carry over to your next 4x5.
    In 30 days you'll have access to WTS/WTB section here---a good resource. Keh Camera also has some very reasonably priced used stuff.
    FWIW I find front rise important with architecture.
    Also I'd avoid a "project" camera for your first camera unless you prefer restoring to making photographs. Consider getting something you can take out and play with right away. You can always take on a basket case later on, if that's what you want to do.
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Re: Question on movement orders

    Manufacturing something like a camera really doesn't worry me too much, given that I've built things from homes and fine cabinetry to drones and automated weapons platforms for work, and the general mechanics alone are as interesting and amusing to me as the photography itself is. I have a workspace that is more than enough to build a fairly detailed camera body, and I'm in no great rush to get started. I do plan to eventually get into grinding custom optics, but will need a far more suitable space to setup such a workshop.

    Part of the goal is to minimize general costs while getting into things. I already have a fair bit of brass, seasoned maple, and carbon fibre sitting around from other projects, but I don't have a 4x5 camera already sitting around. I would rather focus the bulk of what I do spend on reusable equipment on glass as much as possible.

    Of course ordering a ready to go camera to play with would give me a clearer idea of what to put into my own design down the road, and I expect to build a lot of custom gear a few years in the future as I get into larger and larger formats, but even if starting with an off the shelf camera I would still rather have a clearer idea of working details before picking a model.

    I could order the cheapest thing of KEH that is in working condition and go from there, but that just feels like jumping in overly blind.

  10. #10

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    Re: Question on movement orders

    It feels like you are jumping in overly blind because you are. That's why I recommended not building a camera until you have a better understanding on how one works and what you need and like in a camera.

    A field camera works great for landscape photography. They can work for architectural photography too for some. It all depends upon what you are shooting. Back in the day architectural photographers used monorails. Do like John Kassaian suggests and buy a cheap monorail to learn on. Then later you can build your field camera. You may want to keep the monorail for certain subjects or you can always sell and get most of your money back.

    Large Format is a bit daunting at first but there are some really great people on this forum willing to help you. I know they helped me plenty!

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