Albumen vs Gelatin

[basiltahan]

I have searched high and low for the answer to this question:

Can gelatin replace albumin for making salt (albumin) prints?

Do they serve the same function, suspending the salt and then the silver chloride?

I have seen a description of salt prints that use a small amount of gelatin in the paper salting process, but not anything like the thicker glossy surface of an albumin print.

I have been successful in making a glass cyanotype print with the emulsion suspended in gelatin and don't see why it wouldn't work.

There is always experimenting, but if it would work, I don't see why people would bother with the tedious and lengthy process of making albumin.

[blueribbontea]

You can certainly salt gelatin and the gelatin will size the paper, helping the sensitizer not to sink in so much to the paper fibers. This will increase detail from a plain salted paper. Albumen is another animal. Salted albumin will sit more on the surface of the paper, sealing the fibers instead of soaking them. Albumen will work even more to achieve a gloss finish if you apply a second coat, after hardening the first with alcohol. But gelatin sized salt prints are still salt prints, matte finish while a successful albumen can be beautifully glossy and show much more detail and contrast. I hope this helps. Look for the Albumen and Salted Paper Book. It is available online for reading.

[basiltahan]

Thank you Bill.

Do you think gelatin could be poured (like on glass) to achieve a more glossy coat?

[photojeff3200]

If you're looking for a glossy picture derived from a gelatin base try looking into carbon transfer (which you can do on white opal glass), woodburytype, or oil printing just off the top of my head. You can pour gelatin over a print but, I'm not sure if it would make the image glossier. It might just create a reflective surface which would make the picture underneath harder to see. I have tried albumen a few times but am strictly a salt printer because I like matte finishes. I can tell you that albumen prints are quite shiny!
good luck
jeff

[Bruce Schultz]

Zoe Zimmerman makes beautiful matte albumen prints using arrowroot as the sizing, and combines it with salted egg white. I've been working with double-coated albumen. When everything works correctly, it's beautiful. When everything goes to hell, it's a huge waste of time, except learning what does and doesn't work. I have been using Crob Art paper that I bought in Paris but it's only 9x11 inches. I have some 11x14 Cansons sketch paper that absorbs too much liquid, leaving the first coat of albumen dull, so I plan to try sizing that paper with gelatin first to see if that will fix the problem.

[Jim Noel]

Zoe Zimmerman makes beautiful matte albumen prints using arrowroot as the sizing, and combines it with salted egg white. I've been working with double-coated albumen. When everything works correctly, it's beautiful. When everything goes to hell, it's a huge waste of time, except learning what does and doesn't work. I have been using Crob Art paper that I bought in Paris but it's only 9x11 inches. I have some 11x14 Cansons sketch paper that absorbs too much liquid, leaving the first coat of albumen dull, so I plan to try sizing that paper with gelatin first to see if that will fix the problem.

Double coating with albumen takes care of that problem nicely.

[ridax]

Can gelatin replace albumin for making salt (albumin) prints?
Do they serve the same function, suspending the salt and then the silver chloride?

(1) Salt prints and albumen prints are not the same.
(2) Yes both albumen and gelatin serve the same function suspending the silver chloride but albumen servers another function as well.

Albumen reacts with silver nitrate to form a light-sensitive compound that is slower then silver chloride and so makes rich and elaborate in tone prints possible. Plane salt prints lack this and thus aren't able to show that much of the subtle tone differences - on a tone scale as long as with albumen.

Gelatin POP emulsions use citrate to compensate for the lack of the slow acting silver compound found in albumen papers. With citrate, gelatin POPs are at least as capable as albumen ones (and gelatin prints also enjoy much more long-term stability so albumen is not the best way to go... IMHO of course).

(3) Decades ago, there were glossy and super-glossy silver gelatin papers. The later name was used for those that had a supercoating of pre-hardened gelatin over the emulsion (take some 1% to 3% gelatin dissolved in water, add some formalin, wait to let the gelatin harden while still in solution, then pore). Later, the method got to be so common that the special name for the papers that used it was gone...

[dwross]

Hi All,
I can't tell if there is a little confusion about the many types of silver printing processes. All of them can technically be called "salt prints". But, only one is commonly referred to by that name, the original printing paper invented by Fox Talbot. The entire history, making procedure, and recipes are in Christopher James 'Book of Alternative Photographic Processes". James makes his salt prints (just salt and silver nitrate, with contrast-controlling optionals) on gelatin-sized papers to closer match the types of papers that would have been available to Talbot, but gelatin is not necessary. Without the extra sizing, the solution soaks into the paper fibers and the resulting look is very soft. Lovely, though, and very archival.

With an albumen print, the egg white serves two purposes. It suspends the silver and salt (silver halide) above the paper fibers so that the surface is glossy and much finer print detail is visible. It adds printing speed and contrast. Real contrast and apparent contrast are both much greater than with a plain salted print.

So-called 'silver gelatin' paper, the kind that has been considered photographic paper for the last 130 years, is also a silver halide suspended in gelatin. The substitution of the albumen for gelatin really ratchets up the speed, especially if the salt is a bromide rather than a chloride (table salt). Enlarging paper is a silver bromide paper, or far more commonly a mixture of chloride and bromide.

At one time or another I've made all the papers. I printed on albumen for a number of years. It's a beautiful process but in my opinion making a simple silver gelatin paper is much, much simpler and there many surface texture and gloss options.

[denverjims]

Jame's "Book of Alternative Photographic Processes" is certainly a great reference and you can't go wrong following his methods.

To get deeper into the methodology and the many variations that are available, I'd recommend (like others have before) Eleanor (Ellie) Young's thesis paper: "MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING COLOUR AND AESTHETIC APPEARANCE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT". A .pdf copy of which can be found here.

For Albumen, the 1956 James Reilly monograph: "The Albumen and Salted Paper Book". (Which I found much more of an albumen book). It can be found here.

Both have been a big help to get beyond the simple "here's one formula on how you do it" stage.

[basiltahan]

Thank you very kindly for the links. They will be valuable for me.

I have yet to find anyone making their own silver gelatin paper. Seems like it would be easy enough. I have made salt prints with small amounts of gelatin in the salting stage, but I can't see why a thick glossy coat couldn't be applied to achieve similar results to commercial papers but with a much grater range of substrates possible.

Jame's "Book of Alternative Photographic Processes" is certainly a great reference and you can't go wrong following his methods.

To get deeper into the methodology and the many variations that are available, I'd recommend (like others have before) Eleanor (Ellie) Young's thesis paper: "MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING COLOUR AND AESTHETIC APPEARANCE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT". A .pdf copy of which can be found here.

For Albumen, the 1956 James Reilly monograph: "The Albumen and Salted Paper Book". (Which I found much more of an albumen book). It can be found here.

Both have been a big help to get beyond the simple "here's one formula on how you do it" stage.