On the Origin of the 4x5 Camera

[tgtaylor]

William Edward Kilburn was a daguerrotypists that specialized in portraiture and photographed with a quarter plate camera which is smaller than 4x5 inch. For an interesting article on Kilburn with excellent examples of his work see http://image.eastmanhouse.org/files/...0_33_01-02.pdf
The size of Nevil Story Maskelyne's salt images are not 4x5 inch http://books.google.com/books?id=Z7R...rapher&f=false but appear to have been made with a larger camera.

The dry plate process was a revolution in photography which resulted in significantly increasing the market potential for the photographic suppliers. Both Anthony and Dallmeyer started by ordering cameras from manufactures and re-branding them with their own name and, as already shown, Scoville, which had been making 8x10 inch dry plate cameras since the 1870's, was manufacturing a 4x5 inch model for the American mass market in 1881. Only sales would determine the eventual success and permanence of the 4x5 format and it would appear that the US was leading the charge in that regard.

Thomas

[arca andy]

This is something I have never worked out.... why change from whole, half and quarter plate to 5x4 (not 4x5) and 10x8....? Was 5x4 and 10x8 more popular than the plate sizes in the US back in the day?

[IanG]

I have severe doubts that the US was leading anything in in the Photographic industry in the 1880's, far more cameras were being made in Britain and the rest of Europe and being exported all over the world.

US camera designs lagged behind Europe there was no innovation, you only have to look at the sophistication of early MF & LF SLR cameras in Europe with their remarkably modern focal plane shutters, 2 curtains, self capping similar to the cloth shutters in later 35mm SLRs, then look at Graflex shutters which are crude in comparison.

Ian

[tgtaylor]

This is something I have never worked out.... why change from whole, half and quarter plate to 5x4 (not 4x5) and 10x8....? Was 5x4 and 10x8 more popular than the plate sizes in the US back in the day?

It may have been a “marketing decision.” The dry plate revolution brought many amateurs into the market place that needed to “gear-up” and the manufacturers/suppliers of the day were certainly profit motivated. Why choose an older size which could be had on the used marketplace when the opportunity to market a brand new camera existed? Also the public was ready for a larger image than what was commonly available with the older plate cameras and 4x5 inches was a reasonable size at the time and 8x10 inches, which is larger than full-plate (8.5x6.5 inch) was probably considered the ultimate.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

I have severe doubts that the US was leading anything in in the Photographic industry in the 1880's, far more cameras were being made in Britain and the rest of Europe and being exported all over the world.
Ian

Consider the history of the Anthony company: http://www.historiccamera.com/cgi-bi...ogin=anthonyco

Note that "In 1850, competition increased due to the introduction of a new type of silver plate manufacturing by Scovill and by the Paris firm Charles Christofle. This drove Anthony to start the production of daguerreotype cases, camera boxes, and photographic chemicals. Additionally, Anthony sent a representative Samuel Holmes with an assistant on a tour of major inland cities east of the Mississippi, as far as St. Louis. This marketing campaign proved quite successful." Note further that in addition to manufacturing cameras, the Scovill firm was also manufacturing plates.

Also "In 1854 The Anthony factory was located at New York city's, Harlem Rail Road Depot, occupying 1/4 of the building. It was stated in an Anthony catalogue that this factory was the most extensive apparatus and photographic material manufacturer in the wold. Anthony manufactured two cameras of his design, a camera-box and a bellows-box, accomplishing all wood and metal work in this factory. He also had an extensive line of photo cases he manufactured, where he employed young boys and girls to perform simple construction tasks. Additional cameras that he sold were Chapman, Chevalier (Paris), Harrison, Palmer & Longkings and Voigtlander cameras."

A display Ad from 1870: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._%26_...ay_Ad_1870.jpg

Thomas

[goamules]

I have severe doubts that the US was leading anything in in the Photographic industry in the 1880's, far more cameras were being made in Britain and the rest of Europe and being exported all over the world.

US camera designs lagged behind Europe there was no innovation, .....

Ian

I can think of a few things. In 1880, Eastman patented a dry plate coating machine. In 1880s, the first films (Houston, Eastman). Gray and Stammers, first handheld roll film camera. The Prosch shutter. The Klay Mulitplying back. Others....I have to think a minute.

[AtlantaTerry]

Isn't this sort of a "chicken and egg" situation?

Before a 4x5/5x4 camera could be sold would there not need to be film available? Or did folks simply cut 8x10/10x8 media into quarters?

[IanG]

I can think of a few things. In 1880, Eastman patented a dry plate coating machine. In 1880s, the first films (Houston, Eastman). Gray and Stammers, first handheld roll film camera. The Prosch shutter. The Klay Mulitplying back. Others....I have to think a minute.

The problem is that looking at how photography grows in the US is a very one sided history. most of the innovation was taking place in Europe - France, Germany and Britain. Dry plates were already being commercially made (& machine coated) before George Eastman Patented his own coating machine. The first roll films and associated cameras were made in Germany.

It's true that the Antony Company played an important part in US photography but in world terms they had no impact on the choice of 5x4 as a plate/film format.

Ian

[tgtaylor]

Ian,

"In 1879 a few American businesses had produced dry plates in relatively small numbers and for primarily local markets. By the end of 1883 no fewer than twenty-eight American firms were in this business and were shipping plates to vendors as far away as India and China." Philadelphia Photographer 21, page 49 (February 1884). See also Images & Enterprise: Technology and the American Photographic Industry, 1839 to 1925 pages 66-60.

Please cite your evidence, if indeed you have any, to substantiate your statements.

Thomas

[Dan Fromm]

Oh, dear. UK-centric serious person collides with US-centric serious person.

Could we change the subject to the very important question of how many angels can dance on a 4x5 camera?