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Thread: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

  1. #21

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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J. De Smidt View Post
    Yeah, I have to agree with Bruce on that. My goal was to better an Epson scanner. No problem. But the dslr scanner is not as good as my Cezanne, let alone as good as a drum scanner when it comes to d-max.
    Oh well, so much for the encouragement.

  2. #22
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    I'm not sure what the problem is. So you can make a very good scanner with a dslr, but you might not be able to better every other scanner in existence, including ones that cost 10's of thousandths of dollars. Sure, used pro scanners don't have to cost that much, but they also have their issues, such as requiring old computers to run, the cost of parts and maintenance, assuming they can be fixed at all, the use of software from the 1990s...... The older pre-press drum scanners, the big Heils and similar, were meant to be serviced regularly. So, yes, you can spend $1000, $2000....$x000 on an old pro scanner, and you might get a good scanner. (Even if you spend $100,000 on a new Heil or $35,000 on a Premier, assuming you can still buy either of these new, you won't be getting a scanner that's the best at everything, as Tim Parkin has demonstrated.)

    In any case your results depend on the maximum density of your film. If you're using Velvia 50 or some other high density film, then it's likely that a good drum scan will produce the highest quality. If you're using BW negative film with standard density, then most scanners, including dslr scanners, will have more than enough range. In addition, it seems that people tend to over estimate how much detail they capture on film.

    I prefer my dslr scanner to the consumer flatbed and Nikon Coolscan V that I used to have. It cost me about the same to build as a new Epson. And doing so was fun, but it's not perfect.
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
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  3. #23

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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    I'm a little late to the party.

    Jason, please post an image of your problematic DSLR scan results and let us know your magnification when you can.

    As for Dmax/resolution, DSLR's improve with each passing year. Only time will tell how things will turn out comparison wise from one year to the next.

    I'll reiterate one of my favorite aspects of DSLR scanning, the ease with which I can arrive at (finally!) pleasing color in color neg. Slide film still throws me a bit when the Dmax is extreme, I'm not sure if that's down to my monitor though (Eizo Nanao CG241W), which is slightly deficient in the deepest blues where I have trouble. One day we'll be able to actually see on screen all the colors a DSLR can capture, maybe. : )

    Epson's releasing a V850 soon, it's been many years since the V750, it'll be very interesting to see what they have come up with in that time.

    I want to make one small correction to Peter's reference to a D7000 scan I did, it was with rather with a D7100, 16 mp vs. 24 mp.

    Jason, you should try and mock up a station where you can manually stitch at higher magnification, my hunch is your problem will be mitigated to where you won't notice it anymore. Short of that, prove to yourself that shooting at 1:1 M reduces the issue.

    Keep us updated. There's a lot of room for development in DSLR scanning and we all benefit from it's study.
    Last edited by Daniel Moore; 14-Oct-2014 at 22:39.

  4. #24
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    I"m glad that Daniel chimed in. I'll add another benefit with dslr scanners, and that's the easy ability to tailor image capture to each negative. With most scanning software it's very difficult to see what adjustments change the data captured by the scanner as opposed to what adjustments are just software manipulations of that data. With a dslr scanner, there's no ambiguity. One can tailor the capture via light source adjustments and shutter times. In addition, you can upgrade your scanner easily. Perhaps you have a low budget starting out, then something like a Micro Nikkor 55mm could do the trick for very little. Later on you can always add a more expensive lens, a different camera, ... Heck, you could add a stepper on the Z-axis and do focus stacking, which would allow you to work at 5-10x magnification, although that would be overkill in my opinion.
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

  5. #25

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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Judging just by naked eye, no need for scientific tests, my Pentax 645D + Pentax 120 f4 macro lens scanning rig beats any flatbed I 've used. And it is much faster to use to. I can scan a full roll of 35mm in around 15 mins. The only glitch to my workflow is in Lightroom, where I have to invert the curves to see the photos as positives. Once inverted, the sliders will also be inverted, and they are counterintuitive and clumsy to use so. If I chose the Photoshop route then I guess that wouldn't be a problem.
    Sergio

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  6. #26

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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Quote Originally Posted by sergiob View Post
    Judging just by naked eye, no need for scientific tests, my Pentax 645D + Pentax 120 f4 macro lens scanning rig beats any flatbed I 've used. And it is much faster to use to. I can scan a full roll of 35mm in around 15 mins. The only glitch to my workflow is in Lightroom, where I have to invert the curves to see the photos as positives. Once inverted, the sliders will also be inverted, and they are counterintuitive and clumsy to use so. If I chose the Photoshop route then I guess that wouldn't be a problem.
    Over on Luminous Landscape, Mark D Segal & Todd R Shaner have an article on DSLR scanning, with two different methods for dealing with inverted curves. There's a pdf and a downloadable photoshop action. Link: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/es...tographs.shtml

  7. #27

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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Thanks for that link Will, it's a great write up. Page 34 of their pdf has a processing method comparison I found especially interesting, showing subtle but significant tonality differences.

    Marks capture setup, a dangling camera really, is gutsy and is an example of how far one can push the idea.

  8. #28
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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Interestingly this shows the problem with flat beds and dslrs as scanners - if you boost the shadows you see the amount of halation or flare from the light to dark areas Click image for larger version. 

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    Drum scanners get around this by effectively masking the whole frame apart from the one pixel they are analysing.

    The bayer array should be thought about too - effectively the colour resolution is less. You may not notice this unless you see a side by side shot between a drum scanner and a dslr. What you'll see is a loss of fine colour detail (i.e. you might lose fine specks of reds such as berries in trees etc).

    Metameric failure is also an issue with DSLRs (the filters they use are 'compromised' because of the need to get high iso response and also the subselection of materials you can use that can be transformed into pixel size filters. This may cause relative colour shifts of certain dyes that may be difficult to correct (I can't say I've tested but I know flatbed flourescent light sources can cause all sorts of issues with fuji film stock).

    Not saying you can't get acceptable results from a DSLR and you can probably exceed most flatbeds but a good drum scan has many advantages - some more subtle than others.

    Tim
    Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com

  9. #29
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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Happy to scan a test on my Howtek 4500, Screen Cezanne Elite Pro and Heidelberg Primscan.

    It's interesting that I always thought Portra 400 had more grain than Portra 160 until I scanned them both on a Screen Cezanne. Turns out that it was probably an aliasing issue (which happens with drum scans and flat beds etc). The higher resolution of the Screen Cezanne combined with whatever other design decisions they made make a very smooth scan from Portra 400 - just about the same as Portra 160. So I think you need 5500dpi + to over sample grain (at least on new Portra which is quite a large grained film to begin with).

    Tim
    Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com

  10. #30
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: DIY DSLR Scanner vs Drum Scanner

    Hi Tim,

    Thanks for chiming in!

    You're comments are spot on. The Stouffer step wedge was photographed with a 40 year old lens and without a lens shade, but even a modern lens with an application specific lens shade there will still be some flare.

    I have a Cezanne, and I agree that scanning at a high resolution, approximately 6000 spi, gives very smooth scans with regards to grain.

    Daniel and I haven't done much with the dslr scanners lately, as that's more of a winter activity. After some refinements, we'd be happy to scan some negatives and then send them off to you for a comparison.
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

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