Thanks. Then I shouldn't have a problem as I process both test sheets and prints in a Jobo CPA-2 immediately after exposure and both end up sitting in the drum about the same amount of time while waiting to come up to processing temperature.
I recall reading on apug that Kodak color negative didn't print well on Fuji Paper but both manufacturers negatives printed well on Kodak paper.
Thomas
From what know now, Kodak negs processed in Kodak's C41 will print perfectly on Fuji's paper processed in Fuji RA4, and vice versa. Just can't mismatch brands in processing...Originally Posted by tgtaylor
In the nineties, all the big labs in Paris used Kodak chemicals. So someone who used Fuji films (with good results because his usual lab, let's say in NY, SF or LA, used Fuji chemicals) was bound to have his films badly processed in a way that no printing skills could save.
I must say I'm a little shocked to discover this only now. Everyone I know in the business assume that RA4 is RA4, be it Kodak or Fuji, but it's not. And each brand's paper is made to be processed in it's own developer, and I bet the same goes for films. But for those, once the mistake is made, there's no fixing it ! Except with digital rescue...
OK, recess ! Let's have fun for a minute...
I wonder if this would come out even in the wash : a kodak film processed in Fuji C41 and then printed on Fuji paper processed in Kodak RA4...
Since I use Kodak chemicals, I run Kodak control strips (from time to time) and it's all peachy. I've never thought about trying with Fuji strips.
Maybe the problem is more obvious to me as I tend to print very "neutral" and my main client's photos include lots of greyish colors, like concrete...
As I explained in my report, many top printers in Paris were kinda blurry about it. But one admited that he'd had the problem before but blamed it on the image and never thought it could be a chemical issue.
I should add that my investigation was done with only the softer Crystal Archive paper, which shows subtleties more. And although proof-sheets are less problematic because of the smaller image and their higher contrast, switching to Kodak Premier made that process a breeze too...
Mups, interesting to finally read someone's account that mirrors my own. As demonstrated by your method and the examples you've posted, you clearly know what you're doing when it comes to the game of color balancing RA prints.
Honestly, I'm always surprised that no one mentions the latent image drift of contemporary, digitally optimized papers. But then again, most here proclaim that the budget, mini-lab, low silver offering of CAii (I believe it still goes by the moniker CA in the EU), the stuff that available in cut sheets, is just as good if not better than the CA of old. The latent image drift variable can be maddening when it comes to color balance neutrality when you first see that it's happening (on this note, I still have yet to see a good example of a neutral print on the contemporary digitally optimized papers posted here - other than the link to your Cobain portrait print job). But then again, printing for neutral in the color darkroom is a more subtle art than people give it credit for and one I rarely see perfected in the home or institutional drkrm.
I'm also keen to read about your findings on EU Fuji DP-ii. My guess is that the US equivalent of this emulsion is the Crystal Archive CN as the poop sheets look similar. Next time I speak to the Fuji rep I'll ask him about the corresponding product in the US market.
For me, Kodak Premiere works... kind of. The contrast is a bit much for most images I print and the blue/magenta end of the spectrum prints with way too much saturation for my taste. Trying to match the beautiful neutrality of the old Supra emulsions from the '90's is just not possible.
I've used the current fuji pro offering, Fuji CA CN (which is what all the pro labs in nyc seem to be using) under the enlarger, developed in kodak chemistry. While it was worlds apart from CAII (the crappy consumer stuff) I was still not impressed. The colors looked wonky, too much contrast and some color cross even after accounting for latent image drift times. Your tests that you had processed at other pro-labs show the importance of matching the fuji professional papers to the fuji RA chemistry. Yeah! Now I'm eager to try another roll of CN with Fuji RA to see if it's even better than my current go-to option for analogue, Premier in kodak chem. The downside is that I can't justify spending $500 and having 50 gallons of their digital pro Ra chemistry lying around as 95% of my printing output is now from digital files. I'll have to wait to rent time at a lab using the fuji chem so to compare it to the kodak premier in kodak chem.
Thanks for your input and your sensible, clearly observed professional opinion on this matter.
PS... while process control strips can tell you whether or not your process is in control, it can in no way be an adequate indicator of the unique spectrum responses of various papers in different brand developers as all you're really testing for with them is dmax, silver retention, activity and cleanliness of transport.
Regarding the latent image drift, I'm the only one around here who has the problem because I fly solo and have the luck of having the butt of my processor inside the darkroom, so it takes me only a few seconds to take the paper from the easel to the machine. All the other color printers work in much bigger labs and, even if they expose a single strip test, they still have to put it back in a box, go out and walk to the loading room (on a different floor, for some), which always takes them at least a few minutes. Enough not to run into the latent image issue...
And as a reminder, Fuji CA comes out the same, be it processed 5s or 5mn after exposure.
About Fuji's equivalent papers in the USA, all I can say to help is that the unprocessed mat and glossy Fuji CA I used are light sky blue, the mat says "Fujicolor Crystal Archive Paper" on the back (not the glossy) and they're rather thin (same as Premier). Anything dark underneath a light print will show through.
On the other hand, the DPII is of a light orange, is much thicker and has nothing written on the back.
And for the control strips, I would fine very illegitimate to bitch about papers color balance if I hadn't first made sure that my processing was healthy...
Speaking of which, when I did the Kodak VS Fuji RA4 test, I was pleased to discover that the two strip-tests processed by big labs also using Kodak were off in opposite directions, mine being in the middle !
Agreed. I was merely pointing out that having an on-target control strip, whether it be a fuji strip through kodak chem. or vice versa, does not assure that you won't get the strange casts you experienced when using fuji paper in kodak chem.
Now that I think about it, that makes perfect sense Marc. Surely tier one manufactures like Kodak or Fuji would tweak their developers for ultra compatibility with their own product and not worry about the rest. But like yourself, and probably everyone else, I thought that C-41 was C-41 and RA-4 was RA-4 regardless of who manufactures it. Thanks again for your insight on this.
Thomas
I haven't experienced anything even remotely resembling "latent image drift" in current Fuji papers. And yes, I have specifically tested for this. Images processed
a day later will be identical to those processed thirty seconds after exposure. Fuji claims this is a non-issue and I have every reason to believe them. There must be some completely different source for such alleged difficulties. And I've also very skeptical about the alleged claim that Kodak RA4 behaves any different than Fuji/Hunt. There might be replenishment issues etc, and certain other logistical aspects; but properly used, the outcome should be identical.
As specified in my posts, the latent image drift is only a problem with the Kodak Premier and not at all with the Fuji CA.
Regarding the magenta haze resulting from processing Fuji paper in Kodak chemicals, I have a 4 year headache experience and one strip test correctly processed in Fuji to prove it...
I can add that I asked a Fuji tech guy about it a couple years ago and he said that mixing brands results in balance color problems. But back then, I thought he was only saying that so I'd buy their stuff...
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