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Thread: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

  1. #61

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Tribe View Post
    Perhaps you could look inside the barrel to see whether there is a black backing paper strip around the inserted geared track? Or signs that has been one there in the past - and unblacked brass section where the paper used to be?

    And lens glass diameter is?
    Steven, this lens is not mine, I found these pictures on a blog. The geared track is missing. Here is the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amedeus View Post
    Agreed that this is somewhat of a assumption changer.

    The lens clearly says "Brevet d'invention" ... question now is, which invention ? The 1856 ? That would be hard to believe as this would suggest an enormous output. What there another brevet/patent prior to 1856 ? Or was this simply bluff ?
    Rudi, one more interesting thing with this lens is the barrel was cut into two pieces and can joint together by screw threads. You can find the details thought the link above. Not sure it was factory cut or cut by users.

  2. #62

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Of course, the patent engraving changes everything!

    I assumed it was a simple barrel as you would have discovered it (if you had it in your hands!). It is the standard make up for the convertible, which is just about impossible to make from a standard barrel and, anyway, a later modification would have gone for a WHS solution.

    It appears to have lost the track, lens hood and the internal stop frame system - a troubled life indeed. The serial number doesn't match with 1856 patent date. Unless it was something produced before the patent date as part of development work or patent application. But then it shouldn't have the patent "boast" engraved.

    The final problem is that it can't be an added serial number as all known convertible Hermagis Petzvals did have a serial number ex-workshop. Could be an example of a 5 digit serial number which has "lost" the last digit?

    WHatever, I'll edit the table again (#20) to reflect uncertainty - which effects the other odd number.

  3. #63

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Stockton, California

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    This is most likely a #9 convertible based on focal length and diameter of the barrel at the rear.

    I took the liberty to have the link from lucaas translated and for what it is worth, this is what the writer states. Some comments added.

    "It is very old HERMAGIS with serial number 2163. There is a theory that HERMAGIS Inc. was founded in 1845. Once in 1854 the stamp of DEROGY et HERMAGIS can be seen, but then we will return to HERMAGIS again. There is a document that 8745 is manufactured in 1862, so on average it seems that we produced about 500 lenses a year. From this, it can be inferred that lens No. 2163 is manufactured around 1850."

    "I read a handwritten F = 13.5 under the engraving. This is thought to be a note by the former owner of the focal length."

    "If you attach the rack and pinion gear down to the camera, the engraving will turn upside down. Moreover, the engraved mark becomes hidden because it is hidden by the knob. Furthermore the shaft of the knob is very long."

    "Disassembled view. The inner lens barrel can be divided into two. I saw this for the first time. The optical system is an ordinary Petzval. There is no diaphragm function at all."

    "The lens is handwritten with Hermagis in pencil."

    "A two-part barrel. Since there is no aperture, there is no need to split here. Perhaps I wanted to narrow the inner diameter slightly here and want to reduce internal reflection." ---- the writer is clearly not familiar with the convertible

    "Screw the two-piece lens barrel together and it will fit at the position of the rack gear exactly. The rack gear itself is lost.
    What a wonderful thread cutting technique! Although I was impressed, I think I would cut the groove for the rack gear afterwards. Probably initially it was a lens with neither diaphragm nor focusing function, but I think that a rack and pinion gear was added later" --- see my remark above.

    "Since the flange is lost, a 52 mm step-up ring is glued" --- writer mounts the lens to a 52mm helicoid for use on a DSLR, this and the focal length most likely indicates that this is a #9 convertible with a lens diameter of ~44mm.

    "The orientation of the characters of the engraving is also strange. It is obvious to concluded the pinion gear was added without thinking about engraving. The overall look is much like the lens manufactured by Voigtlander in Wien in 1851."

    Last edited by Amedeus; 28-Jan-2018 at 11:01.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Stockton, California

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Tribe View Post
    Added to the list. There are quite a few years in the 1870's after this one (1874), where we still have holes and, perhaps, low annual productions. Could this be due to Dallmeyer's Patent Petzval becoming popular?
    This update relates to post #54

    The new owner of this lens confirmed the lens diameter (79mm visible, 81mm diameter) and the focal length of 210mm. This makes it a F:2.7, not part of the typical list we use for the convertibles. So looking at all the lists I have for Petzval types from Hermagis, I can only find this configuration in the Serie Nr II from around 1900. There's a #6 which is 210mm at F2.7.

    Only thing to conclude is that a list is just a list and that specials or prototypes were made as far as we can assume now.


  5. #65

    Join Date
    Nov 2014

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Have new acquisition

    Hermagis Eidoscope No.1 with serial No 516402

    Regarding the number I guess it is one of the last Eidosopes made by Hermagis before change to SOM Berthiot. Anyway have no clue how old is that. Now I need to get flange replacement and happily looking forward to take first photo

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #66

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    San Francisco, CA

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    1950ish. I have a No.3 (527494) just after the change and a No. 2 just before (510948.) The 1950 Som Berthiot catalog shows a Hermagis labeled Eidoscope No. 3 with serial number 516721.

  7. #67

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Stockton, California

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Hermagis 13864 is already mentioned in the #20 post list as a convertible but just confirming the rear lens is marked 1867

    It's a #6 to be clear, 70mm diameter glass.


  8. #68

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    As this table is now back on page 3 - and difficult to find - I have brought this copy forward and will only update this one from now on.
    This is the first attempt at a table. It is nice that there is no contradictory data!

    XXXX no brass serial number, "12 cent" on rear convex/concave. no. 7 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
    YYYY no brass serial number. Many numbers. no. 9 plain Petzval. Blackened paper behind rack.
    ZZZZ no brass serial number, lens edges not seen- missing rear cell. size no.6?. blackened paper behind rack.
    WWWW no brass serial number. Plain Petzval no.9

    3670 early number noted by P et P. The photograph shows this is a modified sleeve. The pinion has been moved to the other side of the sleeve and the WHS cut-out has been made where the pinion was mounted. It appears the sleeve was originally as XXXX, YYYY etc.

    Start of Serial numbers. 6285 ( and 7010) are engraved with the granted Patent, which was in July 1856. So 6285 cannot be before 1856. I venture to suggest that comprensive serial number engraving was begun at the same time this was granted.

    (2163) Small Convert. Petzval no data on lens,patent engraving - impossible serial no.?

    (3670) P et P image plain Petzval

    6285 many digits, but no date - barrel engravings. Convertible
    6872 digits but no date. barrel engraving Convertible#
    7004. no date but signature on lens - sleeve engraving. Convertible
    7010. P et P illustration p.8 - barrel engraving. Convertible.
    7242 many digits, but no obvious date. Convertible. No. 4.
    8154. only hermagis on achromat. address and 1859 on rear. no.3 convertible
    8268. catawiki auction huge ordinary Petzval with bayonnet rear pair
    8745. D'Agostini
    8077 many digits, no obvious date
    9277 Convert no.7
    9305 P et P
    9335 Convert. no. 4
    9342 Convert. ebay 2019
    9787 Ebay january 2018 Convert. no.4. turner/Finisher names initials. No numbers.
    9804. D'Agostini
    9888. Convertible size (private info)

    10251 P et P
    10417 Ebay august 2017 large convertible sleeve engraved
    10776. P et P
    10922 D'Agostini
    10981 Has dated lens edge in correct style 1874 Replacement? no. 5 convertible
    11228. ebay june 2017
    11272. P et P. stereo
    11824 Breker auction

    Start of dating of lenses?

    12417 GermanLF forum larger CdV size
    12421. P et P
    13240 1867
    13657 1868
    13864. 1867 70mm lens diameter #6 size convert
    13995 1867
    14098 1868
    14444. 1868. convert.
    14659. 1868

    Franco-Prussian war!

    15067. 1872
    15463. P et P
    15505. 1872
    15512. 1873
    15744. 1873
    15904 1878 Replacement ?
    15971. 1874
    15974. 1874
    15988 1874 dated on front and rear lenses SeriesII
    16215 1875
    16457. 1876
    16723. 1876
    16784. 1876
    16944. 1876
    17025. P et P

    18635 1880 These two lenses suggest that there may have been a stock of lenses with
    18702. 1883. their completion date added, but serial numbers were added later.
    19411. 1884. Large plain Petzval
    22071. 1888 plain Petzval

    24312. (1)891 These are the final digits in a long series. Matches with production levels - of the late 80's early 90's.
    31912. (18)97 Large extra rapid series II Petzval

    BOLD serial numbers are those added in 2019. Thanks!

    The remaining 6 are from the 20th century.

    It is obvious that the P et P table is very wrong about a serial number of 12,000 in 1870
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 14-Jan-2019 at 06:59. Reason: Added 9342

  9. #69

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Stockton, California

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    Plain Hermagis Petzval 22071 from 1888 ... no balsam in the front achromat but curvature is a match when properly aligned. Lens diameter 61mm.

    No paper over the track but a relatively hard waxy substance around the track.


  10. #70

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Re: Hermagis Serial numbers Need your help with a database

    I have seen one other Petzval ( GAsc et Charconnet - 3rd series Objectif Simplifies) without balsam. I assume it is a half finished attempt at balsam replacement. Will probably work OK as it is or with a suitable oil!

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