Tray developing problem - 8x10

[TimeShare]

Interesting, I may have to try that !

I was using an 8x10 tray but I made sure the negative was well immersed and used a decent degree of agitation. The flat bottom tray I switched to is now much larger, lines have disappeared but now I got the uneven development spot in the middle.

[Vaughn]

One should use the next size tray up from the negative size. Otherwise the edges of the neg will get more development due to wash-back against the sides of the tray (more agitation at the sides of the tray than in the middle...thus prints will be darker in the center than the sides.) This will happen with good agitation methods and deep trays.

The grooves in the first example might be caused by the anti-halation layer not being evenly removed -- it is removed easier over the grooves than where the film is against the flat part of the tray. It has happened to me.

[TimeShare]

One should use the next size tray up from the negative size. Otherwise the edges of the neg will get more development due to wash-back against the sides of the tray (more agitation at the sides of the tray than in the middle...thus prints will be darker in the center than the sides.) This will happen with good agitation methods and deep trays.

The grooves in the first example might be caused by the anti-halation layer not being evenly removed -- it is removed easier over the grooves than where the film is against the flat part of the tray. It has happened to me.

Thanks Vaughn, someone else also suggested a larger tray as they had experienced a similar problem with the anti-halation layer so i'll have to take you up on your suggestion.

[TimeShare]

One should use the next size tray up from the negative size. Otherwise the edges of the neg will get more development due to wash-back against the sides of the tray (more agitation at the sides of the tray than in the middle...thus prints will be darker in the center than the sides.) This will happen with good agitation methods and deep trays.

The grooves in the first example might be caused by the anti-halation layer not being evenly removed -- it is removed easier over the grooves than where the film is against the flat part of the tray. It has happened to me.

Now that I think of it ... if you look at the second negative I posted, the negative is developed throughout even in the middle of the negative where the cloudy patch is. It looks as if some type of residue has been left on the negative which must be remnants of the anti-halation layer

[tgtaylor]

Well, while I don't have extensive tray developing 8x10 negatives (I usually rotary process them), I have not experienced the problems that you are experiencing. I develop each negative separately in Patterson "10X8" trays which are slightly larger than the negative using a Pyro developer 1:1:100, or 500mL of H20, 5mL of each of Part A and Part B of the Pyro. I do presoak the negative in H20 and then transfer it to the tray containing the developer using the soaking tray for the "stop". The agitation called for by this developer is typical - 5 seconds every 30 seconds - and every 2d cycle of rocking the tray I instead lift the negative out of the tray and let it drain and then submerge it back into the developer. I picked this up from Bruce barenbaum (sp) book "The Art of Photography," or something like that, in developing prints and it made sense to me so I also incorporate that when tray developing film.

Thomas

[Vaughn]

Now that I think of it ... if you look at the second negative I posted, the negative is developed throughout even in the middle of the negative where the cloudy patch is. It looks as if some type of residue has been left on the negative which must be remnants of the anti-halation layer

FWIW...I have developed sheet film (4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and 11x14) in trays for around 25+ years. I switched to Jobo Expert drums about 5 years ago. But even with the drums I wash in trays. I noticed the same problem you showed with the first image. I washed the prints by putting one 8x10 neg in an 8x10 tray and letting it sit there, then emptying the tray and refilling it ever once in awhile. I had problems getting rid of the anti-halation layer...bad problems. I think both sides of the negatives have a gelatin layer -- it keeps the negs from curling, and the negs' back side against the drum did not get enough liquid behind it to remove the anti-hahaltion layer during pre-rinse, dev and fixing -- and the hardener in the fix hardened the gelatin layer before the anti-halation chemicals could be totally removed, making it hard to remove in the wash. Switching to a non-hardening fix solved the problem.

[TimeShare]

Well, while I don't have extensive tray developing 8x10 negatives (I usually rotary process them), I have not experienced the problems that you are experiencing. I develop each negative separately in Patterson "10X8" trays which are slightly larger than the negative using a Pyro developer 1:1:100, or 500mL of H20, 5mL of each of Part A and Part B of the Pyro. I do presoak the negative in H20 and then transfer it to the tray containing the developer using the soaking tray for the "stop". The agitation called for by this developer is typical - 5 seconds every 30 seconds - and every 2d cycle of rocking the tray I instead lift the negative out of the tray and let it drain and then submerge it back into the developer. I picked this up from Bruce barenbaum (sp) book "The Art of Photography," or something like that, in developing prints and it made sense to me so I also incorporate that when tray developing film.

Thomas

Thanks for the tip Thomas

[TimeShare]

FWIW...I have developed sheet film (4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and 11x14) in trays for around 25+ years. I switched to Jobo Expert drums about 5 years ago. But even with the drums I wash in trays. I noticed the same problem you showed with the first image. I washed the prints by putting one 8x10 neg in an 8x10 tray and letting it sit there, then emptying the tray and refilling it ever once in awhile. I had problems getting rid of the anti-halation layer...bad problems. I think both sides of the negatives have a gelatin layer -- it keeps the negs from curling, and the negs' back side against the drum did not get enough liquid behind it to remove the anti-hahaltion layer during pre-rinse, dev and fixing -- and the hardener in the fix hardened the gelatin layer before the anti-halation chemicals could be totally removed, making it hard to remove in the wash. Switching to a non-hardening fix solved the problem.

Wow ... I am interested in your comment about a non-hardening fix as I have always used Ilford rapid fix but I just switched to kodafix which is a fast acting hardening fix. The switch to kodafix coincides with when I started to develop my 8x10 negatives ... hmmmmmm !

[Vaughn]

I use Kodak Rapid fix without the Part B -- the hardener.

[TimeShare]

I use Kodak Rapid fix without the Part B -- the hardener.

Well ... I think i finally figured this freaking thing out thanks to a suggestion from a kind friend on Ipernity ... With the lights on, I took a sheet of 8x10 film and watch the anti-halation layer come off the film in water.

I was amazed at how much agitation it took to get rid of the green residue coming from the film. it took way more agitation and a longer amount of agitation than just a simple pre-soak for 2 minutes, which is what I usually do.

I think because my agitation was limited, the anti-halation was still contaminating my developer and fixing process and residue was being left behind on my negative.

Your above suggestions of using a larger tray and more liquid will help for sure.

Time to shoot some more 8x10 and test the theory applied in the light to a full developing session.

Stay tuned & many thanks for everyones kind help & suggestions !!!!