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Thread: Dating Derogy lens

  1. #11

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    Unless anyone can suggest a reason why I shouldn't, I will use this thread to build up a table of lens types from Wallet, Hermagis & Derogy and Derogy from around 1855 until about 1865. There are a number of different engravings, serial numbers/no serial numbers lens edge markings etc.
    There is some data in D'Agostini and le reve edition, but I think we can do better!
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 20-Feb-2020 at 07:34.

  2. #12

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    Before I start any listing, I would like to summarise the known history of the "Derogy" brand. This is basically extracted from the standard modern descriptions by Pont/Princelle and L'Agostini - neither of which is available online!

    Wallet founded the company (Optician) pre photography in 1820. In the 1840's and early 1850's he had two members of staff called Hermagis and Derogy. There are apparently no lenses engraved with Wallet alone, a few with "Wallet & Hermagis" most, if not all, achromatic types. The next engraving types include Derogy and exclude Wallet, " Derogy & Hermagis". There is only one engraved example of this and our own "Eddie" had a plain barrel lens with pencil edge markings of "Derogy & Hermagis". Derogy married Wallet's daugther , Elisabeth Adele, in June 1852 and Hyacinthe Hermagis left to form his own establishment! None of the lenses with these early engravings had serial numbers but would be very welcome in the listing.

    Derogy continued until 1926, although the name stumbled on until around 1970.
    Apart from the large production of early Petzvals, Derogy had a respectible production of Aplanats in all sizes. Minor highlights were his version of the "Globe" and of Puyo's anachromatique Pictorial lens.

    Le Reve listing of serial numbers is below.

    1858. around 4,000
    1860. 10,000
    1870. 15,000
    1880. 20,000
    1890. 25,000
    1900. 30,000
    1910. 35,000
    1914-1920. 45,000

    Earliest known is 436 (Retro-engraved?)- highest 45,187.

    Interesting he made exactly 5,000 lenses every decade!!

    ADDED MAY 2020Earliest genuine engraving is 3808 which is foyers multiples with the serial number also engraved on the "plus petit" extra lens (The other one is lost)
    4290 is almost certainly 1858 as it the earliest FOyers Multiples which had a French Patent date of March 1858.

    Writing on the side of lens will not be very helpful here as I havn't seen any!

    There are many, many variations in the engraving, including a sub-set for the UK?
    Derogy did not make projector lenses (At least, with his name on them)! so all non-serial number Lenses are early (plain?) Petzvals.
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 7-May-2020 at 01:33. Reason: early serial number

  3. #13

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    An early "Verre Combinés" sn10522, only engraved "Brevet d'Invention DY à Paris". Definitely a Derogy

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #14

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    This one has always been a Unicum! The brass is obviously correct, but why DY?

    I don’t believe the Pont sequence - with 10,000 being about 1860. The patent Foyers Multiples did sell well, but a sale of 6,000 from 1858 - 1860 doesn’t seem realistic.

  5. #15
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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    I have one of these. Mine is complete with the two little inter-lenses and some washer stops, plus the little between lens housing. Brass lens cap looks the same as yours, as does the flange. Mine says, "brevet di invent/s.d.g.g./Derogy, Optn./a Paris./Derogy/V (crown logo) R/Patent. No serial number. Any idea of date? I was guessing 1858. I have a second lens, no serial number. It's engraved: Brevet d invention/s.g.d.g./Derogy/a Paris. No serial, no crown logo, no slot for stops. Is bayonet barrel like the other one.


    Kent in SD
    Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris,
    miserere nobis.

  6. #16

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    We are lucky (or, perhaps unlucky!) in that Derogy had a whole range of different engravings!

    Perhaps these represent different dates, but perhaps not. There is certainly a range of English language engravings - including the UK crown symbol (Harry and Meghan!) and V R ( Victoria Regina). Perhaps we will get some idea of whether there is a obvious date (serial number) link with the actual engraving type.

    using my own small collection/D’Agostini/Pont, I can see the following variations

    French / English market. ( V R, “Crown”, Patent)

    Opiciens/Optn/Fabt.

    PARIS/Paris/a Paris/Paris & Londres/Paris Londres

    Brevet d’Invention - used only with Objectif foyers multiples (“patent” on English versions)

    Brevete - probably only used on Aplanats

    Engraving on the “additional lenses” of the Foyers Multiples. These can be in the face or the sides of the loose lenses (see attached photo)

    Will add to this list of different varieties of engraving as other variations are identified.
    Eventually we will have a check list for (nearly) all Derogys.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 46591AD9-7B81-488E-975F-5D2AC18F7CB1.jpg  

  7. #17

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    I have been looking at the details of the brass work on various illustrated and own Derogy Petzvals and there seem to be a few changes during time. In particular, the style of the turning knob on the tangential drive exists in two distinct versions. There are indications that there is an early model and a late model. Petzvals without serial numbers and Waterhouse slots have the older version, whilst the later, with serial numbers, have the simpler lathe finish.
    The older and the newer wheels are shown below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7DCB3851-79A2-4C32-83CE-0CD240BB610D.jpg  

  8. #18

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    I have another (unique?) engraving - probably from the few days when Derogy was deciding how to engrave his lenses for the UK market!
    First half is the standard French Foyer Multiples - second half is “Derogys V crown R Patent.” No serial number.

    The second half has a slightly deeper engraving - an addition?

    Extra: May 2020 UK auction.
    There is another identical example of the english/french engraving at this auction.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2488A0F0-0F91-4596-8513-ABA4E7181035.jpg  
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 7-May-2020 at 01:27.

  9. #19
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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Tribe View Post
    We are lucky (or, perhaps unlucky!) in that Derogy had a whole range of different engravings!

    Perhaps these represent different dates, but perhaps not. There is certainly a range of English language engravings - including the UK crown symbol (Harry and Meghan!) and V R ( Victoria Regina). Perhaps we will get some idea of whether there is a obvious date (serial number) link with the actual engraving type.

    using my own small collection/D’Agostini/Pont, I can see the following variations

    French / English market. ( V R, “Crown”, Patent)

    Opiciens/Optn/Fabt.

    PARIS/Paris/a Paris/Paris & Londres/Paris Londres

    Brevet d’Invention - used only with Objectif foyers multiples (“patent” on English versions)

    Brevete - probably only used on Aplanats

    Engraving on the “additional lenses” of the Foyers Multiples. These can be in the face or the sides of the loose lenses (see attached photo)

    Will add to this list of different varieties of engraving as other variations are identified.
    Eventually we will have a check list for (nearly) all Derogys.
    Although I don't have a Derogy lens in my little lens collection, I saw another variation; one that entails the address in Paris:

    "Derogy Optn
    Breveté s.g.d.g.
    quai de L'horloge 33
    Paris
    " (without serial number)
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  10. #20

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    Re: Dating Derogy lens

    Yes!
    Not common, though - just used at the start.

    There are two examples in the le Reve booklet - both on achromats.

    Wallet & Hermagis Opticiens Quai de l’Horloge 33. Paris.

    Derogy Opt. success. de Wallet Qua de l’Horloge 33 Paris

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