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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Hi Bazz, thanks for that. I think in the interim I'll go with the glass plate, as scratching is intolerable. I've always developed all my sheet film in trays, but spurred on by this experience I'm looking into making a tank and hanger system for the 5x12 x-ray film I'm using, using acrylic sheeting - something like the Combi Plan system. If it works out I might build something for other formats. I'm not thinking of making it daylight capable, as I'm quite happy developing in darkness of under safelight. Keep you posted. Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bazz8
Barry The sheet of glass placed in a 8x10 tray eliminated three dense lines in a traditional tray, no scratches and I rock the tray side to side then switch to rocking end to end.
The film does not stick to the glass,as a aid to pick up the film I cut all corners at 45deg which enable quite easy removing the neg from the developer.
I use Fuji HRT 1:100 rodinal as a developer.
I have been testing some Kodak R-Min x-Ray and this develops quite nicely in Rodinal 1:100 and LC 29 13mm +1000 which is giving a slightly denser neg Dev times 6-8 Minutes
Bazz with a Croweaters greeting
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Hi axs, yes they look a little too distinct to be developing probs? I know on one of my films I had fine circular lines, like a Fresnel screen? But was usinga 10x12 wit no fesnel in sight? Could just be one of those things. I got sick of tray developing because of all the mottling. After months of drooling over sergei's results I got a drum developer, still get a few scratches but the difference is chalk and cheese in the outcome. Not saying its the answer for all, but it worked for me. Do you use photo paper or scan?
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrewch59
Hi axs, yes they look a little too distinct to be developing probs? I know on one of my films I had fine circular lines, like a Fresnel screen? But was usinga 10x12 wit no fesnel in sight? Could just be one of those things. I got sick of tray developing because of all the mottling. After months of drooling over sergei's results I got a drum developer, still get a few scratches but the difference is chalk and cheese in the outcome. Not saying its the answer for all, but it worked for me. Do you use photo paper or scan?
I do both. Darkroom print and scan.
Yeah...I'm getting tempted to get a Jobo drum. I just feel nervous manually rolling it lol...and Jobo Processors are a bit out of my price range for now (but eventually I would like to pick one up)
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/628/31...ef366c01_b.jpgAttachment 160662
Korona Camera (1932), Wollensak Optical Co, 8x10 f/8 High Grade Symmetrical Brass Lens Pat 1900-1901, AGFA X-ray, Blue film, R09, 10min, contact print on Ilford MGIV RC DE Luxe pearl paper,
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Through buying old darkroom lots I have managed to pickup two old electric rollers, then bought the mod54 and modified it a bit. Try Sergei's site, http://sergeirodionov.com/x-ray-film-photography/ I follow his technique to the letter and have had great results. Though I developed a couple of sheets last night, it was 35 degrees (95f) at 9 pm, so the developer would have been a little more active then normal. There were some very distinct flow marks visible.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeKlari
Subject matter is pretty awesome!
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Subject matter is pretty awesome![/QUOTE]
thanks I have one more:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/577/31...da8fac8f_b.jpg
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
OK gurus, what about DeKlari's processing caused the density variations in the sky? I'm assuming that it has something to do with agitation. Too much? Too little?
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Too little agitation is the most likely cause. I find that with tray development, xray film requires constant (gentle) agitation and frequently turning the film over so that both sides receive equal and even development. I rock the tray gently sideways 4 or 5 times, then flip the sheet over and keep doing that until it's done.
Also, by the look of those images and particularly the second one, I wouldn't be surprised if he used a ribbed tray. Any unevenness on the bottom of the tray will result in uneven development and/or scratches.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Yes, tray cause this. I try to constant agitation but still get this density. I guess my tray too small, not much room for film moving during developing.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
And yes I have used a ribbed tray. Thanks for help. I will try to fix this issues in the future.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Considering the fact that you used a ribbed tray, the results are actually quite encouraging! Most of the unevenness seems to be caused by this; using a flat-bottomed tray should get rid of most of the problem. I see in the first image that the edges are still a little 'hot' from overdevelopment. As many others will assure you, only a bigger tray will solve this. I currently use a non-stick oven tray tray that's about 25x35cm (inner dimensions; ca. 10x14") and that seems to be just large enough for 8x10" film. For 4x5" x-ray film I use a tray that's about 13x19cm (~5x7.5") and that works fine. Don't waste your time on trays that are too small and that will just fit your film - I've been there, done that for dozens or probably even hundreds of sheets and the edges will _always_ develop faster than the center, no matter what magic you work with your body to ensure perfect agitation.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I would not recommend continuous agitation with double-sided x-ray film in trays, including flat-bottomed trays. You run the risk of "skuffing" and or scratching the emulsions. Gentle north/south, east/west every 30 seconds works very well for me. Flipping the emulsion can be good advice (I don't. I don't like sticking my fingers in Pyrocat), but be very careful to not scratch with your finger nails. Stay away from ribbed trays... or place a sheet of plexi inside.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I wish I could get even development the way you do it Andrew, but my mileage varies too much from yours, I'm afraid ;) How you get even development without flipping the film is beyond me (well, without stripping the backside of course) - count your blessings!
You're right about the scuffing and the scratching. This film scratches if you so much as look at it.
Here's one I did this afternoon. Doubled-sided green-sensitive at EI 50, Pyrocat HD 1.5+1.5+100, continuous agitation for about 9 minutes by gently rocking the tray from side to side for 5 times and then flipping the sheet over. Wearing gloves helps to keep the nasty pyrocat off the skin. Scan from negative; I develop these for Van Dyke printing and this negative is a tad on the thin side, but it prints quite alright.
http://www.koraks.nl/galleries/8x10_..._XRGPCHD_3.jpg
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Do any of you try a vertical developing? like standard tank for 4x5 with frames? I guess for 8x10 film it will be a little problem to find such large and thin tank.
I'm sorry if you already discuss this, but this forum too big..
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
excellent work, I definitely should try this
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Thanks; it's been a long and rocky road and I'm not quite there yet, but I'm finally getting somewhere at least.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I've successfully used tank development with hangers for X-ray film. Both 4x5 and 8x10.Pyrocat developer and various minimal agitation schemes. I make sure to agitate vigorously.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I haven't tried tank development personally, but I suspect that if you can live with the volumes of developer and fixer it requires, I think it should work very well indeed.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koraks
I haven't tried tank development personally, but I suspect that if you can live with the volumes of developer and fixer it requires, I think it should work very well indeed.
I just thinking, If make very thin plastic tank for 8x10. Something as 8x10 film holder to reduce the volumes of developer (it could be also transparent) and using it in the darkroom.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeKlari
Do any of you try a vertical developing? like standard tank for 4x5 with frames? I guess for 8x10 film it will be a little problem to find such large and thin tank.
I'm sorry if you already discuss this, but this forum too big..
I use the discontinued HP CombiPlan for 4×5. But I'll be tray developing when I get my Century Universal in working order.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Be careful about using a too thin tank for 8x10. The film bows out from the developing hanger frames and can scratch in the middle. If I make new tanks I worry less about tank volume and more about not scratching the film. My plexiglass tanks only hold 700-800 mL for standard Kodak 8x10 hangers. If you mix your own developers they don't cost much compared to the frustration of spoiled films.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/484/32...924ccc61_c.jpg
a well-used French horn
Kodak Commercial Ektar 14"/f6.3 @f6.3, Rodinal 1+50 10:00 tray, Retina MOD Green Xray film (Carestream, Rochester, USA) @ISO 80, Sinar p2
My first attempt shooting and developing xray stock - I'm impressed. I took some extra care because I never developed in trays, but it worked well. At 100% it shows some scratches, but hardly any dust. I'm pleased, especially since I now have 99 30x40cm sheets left, which are 396 5x7 or 198 8x10 - at a cost of €15!
Have to see how to proceed from here, perhaps lower the contrast to get smoother tonality.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Very nice Dirk, a good choice of subject. In storage I have at least one of every musical instrument back from my music education days...I really should do some macro/detail images. Thanks for the inspiration.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeKlari
Do any of you try a vertical developing? like standard tank for 4x5 with frames? I guess for 8x10 film it will be a little problem to find such large and thin tank.
I'm sorry if you already discuss this, but this forum too big..
I have done it for 8x10 and now only do it for stand/semi-stand. I prefer tray for conventional development, as very little developer is required.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Dirk, that's an excellent result - and to know that this is an initial attempt, that's really impressive! How did you agitate?
Andrew, how much developer solution do you use and how large is your tray for 8x10? I currently use 200ml in a 11x15" tray, which seems to be just about the minimum. I'm quite curious how you manage to get even development with intermittent agitation!
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Corran
Very nice Dirk, a good choice of subject. In storage I have at least one of every musical instrument back from my music education days...I really should do some macro/detail images. Thanks for the inspiration.
Thank you - you should indeed! And perhaps play it a little while you have it out, it makes a good contrast to taking pictures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koraks
Dirk, that's an excellent result - and to know that this is an initial attempt, that's really impressive! How did you agitate?
Maybe it is beginner's luck, we will see. I agitated sporadically, sort of every 30s like in the 35mm days when doing inversion, but I wasn't looking at the clock really...
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Fascinating; how much developer do you use (ml) and what size tray? I want to try and replicate what seems to work for both Andrew and yourself so I'm looking for as detailed information as possible.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I used a 10x8 tray and I think 500ml of developer. I think my effective time yesterday was 7-8mins, the dev was colder than I thought.
Today I felt lucky and did another sheet in a Jobo print drum, but this time 1+100 and 12:00. However that neg is far too dense, not sure if it is overexposed or overdeveloped, possibly both. Also it shows marks where the ribs in the drum are and more scratches than the tray.
Is anyone exposing this at other than ISO 100?
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Double sided 8x10 Fuji film rotary developed in Rodinal 1+50 for 4:0 minutes
Attachment 160753
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I expose at EI 50 for good shadow detail in Van Dyke prints, but 100 would be fine for scanning and silver gelatin printing.
I find that I usually need to increase my development time when using a jobo processor, contrary to what everyone suggests. I'm not sure why this is; it may be due to developer exhaustion, even though the same 200ml of developer I'd use for tray developing 8x10 xrays results in a much weaker negative when I use that volume in the jobo processor. Haven't really figured out what's going on here.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mkillmer
Double sided 8x10 Fuji film rotary developed in Rodinal 1+50 for 4:0 minutes
Attachment 160753
Great!
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koraks
I expose at EI 50 for good shadow detail in Van Dyke prints, but 100 would be fine for scanning and silver gelatin printing.
I find that I usually need to increase my development time when using a jobo processor, contrary to what everyone suggests. I'm not sure why this is; it may be due to developer exhaustion, even though the same 200ml of developer I'd use for tray developing 8x10 xrays results in a much weaker negative when I use that volume in the jobo processor. Haven't really figured out what's going on here.
Perhaps increased aeration...
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I figured that as well; rapid oxidation. The other possibility is less exposure of the film to the developer as most of the time, the film is not in contact with the layer of developer at the bottom of the drum.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
200 ml is really minimal for 810. I am a believer in a little too much is better than a little shy. That assures that regardless of subject matter I do not exhaust the developer.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Attachment 160768
This one was taken using a Hunter Penrose camera using a Ross 3A portrait lens 16 inch. Neg was 16.5 x 13.5 inches. Developed in 275ml of solution which required 20ml of RO9 developer. Too big to scan, copy taken with a tablet, isn't she stunning! Best model I could find with my reputation
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Correction, that should be 2750mil of water to 20ml Ro9
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrewch59
Attachment 160768
This one was taken using a Hunter Penrose camera using a Ross 3A portrait lens 16 inch. Neg was 16.5 x 13.5 inches. Developed in 275ml of solution which required 20ml of RO9 developer. Too big to scan, copy taken with a tablet, isn't she stunning! Best model I could find with my reputation
I'm going to have nightmares now...
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I wont pass that on, she suffers from low self esteem.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Here is a recent image shot on the Carestream single sided stuff. I had my meter set at ISO 25 ( for my Efke 25). I developed it in Rodinal 1:100 for 11 minutes. I develop all of my 8x10 in one gallon tanks. The print is a carbon print and the cell phone shot is of the wet print.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Attachment 160868
here's something else I'm trying, the biggest probs with mottling and streaking seems to be the film sitting on the bottom of the tray, I cut off the hanger on one of my old stand drop holders. It now keeps the reverse side off the bottom of the tray avoiding scratches and spent developer remaining stationary under the film. A lot easier to flip in the tray and move into the other soups.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Fitzgerald
Here is a recent image shot on the Carestream single sided stuff. I had my meter set at ISO 25 ( for my Efke 25). I developed it in Rodinal 1:100 for 11 minutes. I develop all of my 8x10 in one gallon tanks. The print is a carbon print and the cell phone shot is of the wet print.
That looks excellent, Jim.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MAubrey
That looks excellent, Jim.
Thanks.
Just a reminder for everyone. Most of us are describing what we post with all of the development info etc. Most are saying if it is a print or a scan. Just a reminder please let everyone know if they are showing a print or a scan. I think it helps the group understand how x-ray film can be presented in many ways. Very helpful information I feel.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Jim, great image, I bet it looks great dried and matted! You're right about it being necessary to tell if an image is a negative scan or a print scan (and if so, what kind of print) to interpret the results.
This is a scan from an 8x10" negative with some slight curve adjustments to boost highlight contrast. Green-sensitive generic, double-sided x-ray film, exposed at EI 50 with one stop reciprocity correction (exposure was something like 6 minutes), although this correction was probably unnecessary. Symmar-S 300/5.6 @ f/5.6 in quickly fading light. Developed in the tray I mentioned earlier in Pyrocat HD 1.5+1.5+100 for about 9 minutes, continuous agitation by rocking the tray from side to side and flipping the sheet every four rocking cycles. The scuff marks on the corners are caused by the curved sides of the tray, where the non-stick coating is slightly irregular. I may devise something to hold the sheet in the center of the tray to prevent this, but haven't given it much thought yet.
http://www.koraks.nl/galleries/8x10_...XRGPCHD_04.jpg
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Apologies to you both, will keep my ideas to myself in future.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
I don't follow Andrew; was that aimed at Jim and myself? I don't see the need for the apparent despondency and I don't think Jim's remark was specifically aimed at you. It looks like your experiment was quite successful indeed and I have pondered about a similar approach, but I don't have any hangers like those. Did you notice any nu sagging of the film? It looks like 4x5", which would be less prone to sagging. Have you tried this with 8x10?
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrewch59
Apologies to you both, will keep my ideas to myself in future.
Please keep your ideas coming. Silence is not a solution.
Is that a pun?
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koraks
Koraks,
nice to see your bright work :-)
Not the final version, but I want to show it unperfectly:
12x16" green sensitive negative
again my 500mm Helvetia Extra Rapid
contact printed on Fomabrom
slightly digital coloured, because I wanted to get a first idea about sepia toning this print
Attachment 160907
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Koraks, beautiful image, it looks great. My purpose for the comment was this. Remember we merged two threads about x-ray film. In my original post I was asking to show prints and also discuss your processing. So if you scan that is fine. I just think it is important to show what prints can be made with x-ray film. It gives the viewers an idea of what can be done. I've gotten many ideas from the people who have posted here and have learned quite a bit. I was using Pyrocat-HD but I found that I liked the results from Rodinal as well. The prints that I saw made me try this combination. So by all means tell us all that you do but be sure to let us know your end result. For me it is all about the print. Others a scan, no problem. I just feel that the more we know the more we learn.
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Re: Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images
Thanks Jim and Plaubel! Plaubel, your previous version of your image inspired me to do mine high key ;)