I have used Diafine with great resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveKarr
Printable View
I have used Diafine with great resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveKarr
Hey Wallace,
So what's the secret? Still 3 min in each? Do you do trays or hangers? And dare I ask about ASA?
Also did I read you dilute the soup??
Hmmm ....
Thanks for replying...
Steve
Ok,
So trying to show some control over this darn X-Ray film I did some tests the last few nights. I found:
1) The ASA and development times in D-76 1:1 to give a med gray card 130 with the color picker.
2) Blue sensitive Looks really different than Green ... Who woo'da guessed?
In my test the wall is Kermet green. And the Green sensitive is on the Left ...
My test were not to find first image above base fog, or .000001 on a densitometer ...But simply Middle Gray. So I metered off a gray card with a Minotla F Spot & scanned in SilverFast with NO adjustments anywhere. Not even black/white points.
So Kodak HRA Green sensitive a solid 100asa 7.5 min D-76 1:1 68*
Agfa 10T 1/2 Speed Blue 12asa 9 min D-76 1:1 68*
So here yea go ... Enjoy
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9...hracompare.jpg
Hi Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveKarr
I use a system of 9 trays. For the trays I use Rubbermaid dishpans from Wal-Mart @ $1.88 a pop I also do everything under a Red LED safelight so I can see everything. I also do this in my Bathroom/Darkroom. Also all the chemicals are mixed per the standard box directions.
In tray 1 I use plain tap water as a preasoak. This tray sits on the back left corner of my vanity/sink.
In tray 2 I use Diafine A this sits on the front left corner of the sink
In tray 3 I use Diafine B this sits on the front right corner of my sink
In tray 4 I use plain water as a stop bath and that sits in the back right corner of the sink
In tray 5 I use cheapy Freestyle Brand "Arista" liquid rapid fixer and that sits on the back of the "throne"
I then set up 4 more trays in the bottom of my bathtub all filled with plain tap water.
I do one sheet at a time in each tray and just drop it in and let it float for 4 minutes then I move them down the line. I only have four 8x10 film holders and I develop all 8 sheets from them at one time.
I find that with the Diafine in trays you do not really need to have any significant agitation. What I do is gently lay the film sheet on top of the solution and it will slowly sink but never really get flat on the bottom. I very carefully lift the sheet out of the solution and flip it over 2 or 3 times during the 4 minutes in each cycle. Going right down the line. You need to be careful not to get any Part B into the Part A tray I wear disposable netrile medical exam gloves and only use my left hand for part A and since I am right handed I use my right hand for everything else. I also do not use tongs but just gently use my hands with the gloves and try to grab the sheets by the corner.
Every tray gets around 4 minutes of soak. That is probably more time than is needed for the fix but it really does not hurt anything. Also I don't sweat it if it goes for longer as it will not hurt anything and when you have all 8 trays going it is pretty hetic.
For the 4 trays of rinse water I fill a new one up for each sheet in the tray under the faucet and slide the rest down that way the final rinse tray is always 100% fresh water. So each sheet of film sits in the rinse water baths for 16-20 minutes.
It seems to work well for me and I have not had any serious issues with scratching.
What I notice doing Diafine under safelight is that once the sheet hits Part B in only a few seconds it very quickly gets an image on it. My guess is that 90+% of the development happens in the first 10 seconds
Steve, I'm using minimal agitation. Agitate for 1 1/2 minutes at first, after pre soak that is, then once every three minutes for 10 seconds. ISO 100 is right on and the great thing is you do not have to worry about reciprocity! I have some shots that I metered @ 20-30 seconds and shot them at that time and the negs are great.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveKarr
Jim
Yes, I too am using Diafine, but each solution is diluted 1:1 with water I use it in a Jobo rotary tank process. I used it on the High Speed blue sensitive and it worked very well. I have been using it on the little of the green that I have been testing and it seems to work fine there, too, although, at least with Diafine on the normal speed green (CXS brand), 100 is too much exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveKarr
sorry i came late to the classroom :) Ok i just got KODAK Medical X-Ray Film / General Purpose / Green ..SO
1.Can i use xtol Dev?
2.Should I pr-soak?
3.what iso should i set ?
4.Im gonig to use my Cpp2 (is it good idea or not?)
Goldfish ....
Get some snacks & read the whole thread. It is 98% of what you need to know to make X Ray look great.
Use hangers... BTW
GOLDFISH, I've had success with pre-soak and develop in a weak Pyrocat-HD. Use hangers for sure. I shoot my green sensitive @ ISO 100.
Jim
After quite a bit of effort, and nearly 50 sheets of film, I have finally managed to produce a negative from green sensitive xray which is comparable to regular panchromatic film.
My goal was to produce a negative for kallitypes, primarily studio portraits. I use Rodinal 1:100 in a flat bottomed tray with 1 liter of solution (convenient and cheap). My negatives swung between having compressed tonality--resulting in weird blotchy skin tones--or blown highlights. The key for me was using the ideas in D.F. Cardwell's article "Shaping the tone curve of a Rodinal Negative" to compensate for the oddities of X-Ray film. I dropped my ASA from 100 to 64, which produced nice rich skin tones, and also significantly reduced by agitation, which tamed my highlights. I did not change my development time of 6 minutes nor my dilution of 1:100 which I had come to through a failed (and lame) attempt to apply BTZS ideas to xray film.
As (hopefully) you can see from the attached scan (an 8x10 crop of an 11x14 negative, with only very minor adjustments), my negatives are quite sharp, and most importantly, produce great kallitypes. Much of the sharpness I should attribute to using strobes (which I am a novice, so please forgive the double catch-lights and other flaws in the attached sample). This was of great help, since it reduced the number of variables I was working with. Anyhow, it is too dark and rainy to go out with an 11x14.
Jason-congratulations.
Did you encounter [and conquer] the scratching problem some of us have had when tray processing/ [ with the blue film]?
No, that remains the Achilles heel. I use a smooth bottom stainless tray, but continue to have some scratches, caused I think by my washer. I had fewer when using a hardener in my fixer (I ran out of alum and haven't bought more), but am considering using either a prehardening bath or a hardening stop. Anyone have any experience with these? I do have an 11x14 tank set and one hanger, but really don't want to mix up five gallons of chemicals.
Another issue is a light scum which forms on the surface of the negatives. I can usually brush it off in a final rinse in distilled water and photoflo, but I don't always manage to remove it. No idea what causes it, as it is not present with my panchromatic films. I was thinking about trying some of the fix from CXS and seeing if that reduces it.
Freestyle had a clearance of hardener so I got some to try- just haven't got back to the darkroom. It is touted for alternative process/liquid emulsion type things so I assumed it would not kill developers, and I figure that'e the place I gotta have help. Actually I tried using only a hardening fixer and scratched the neg- the only "good" thing about it is the scratches are in the sky and I can probably spot the neg and then the prints. So then I saw the pre-hardener and ordered it.
I owe you and others reports on my experiments- but I haven't got anything to work better, yet
Thanks loads
regards
Ed
I've been following this thread for a while, planning to get in on this later in the spring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi
Congratulations on your success, BTW. It looks great.
As for the scum, I have experienced and read about the gelatinous layer that forms on EFKE films if you do not use a hardener in the fixer. My experience with that has been that if you ignore it then it dries into a hard invisible film on the surface of the emulsion.
Is this similar? If you do not remove the scum, then it dries and is not an issue? Or are the negatives compromised by the contamination?
Michael
You can reduce scratches with a tanning deveoper like Pyrocat-HD. I've had no problems.
What I have on my negatives can easily be removed in a second wash, so long as I wipe it off with my gloved hand. It could probably be squeegeed off, but I am afraid to try. I think it is something in my fixer reacting to the film, or perhaps a reaction to my citric acid stop? Too many variables. Others have recommended pyrocat, but I have never much liked the results I get with staining developers, so haven't tried.
For what it is worth, I just looked at the attachment I posted, and noticed that it looks a lot worse in the conversion into JPG, so please know that it is actually quite a bit nicer in reality.
I've taken to developing my Xray by inspection via infrared goggles. The character of the density buildup is very different than pictorial films. Usually picture films develop density slowly, almost at a decaying rate, so that hitting the correct development time is easier. Xray film is the opposite....several minutes go by with no image formation at all, making me think it's not exposed, and then the image starts to build, and then within the space of probably 30 seconds the density shoots up to the value that I want. I have to really pay attention to throw the sheet in the stop when it looks right. I imagine developing by time/temp would be somewhat difficult, though maybe not.
EDIT: actually with my LED safelight, I can develop green Xray film under red safelight. I develop my normal sheet film with IR goggles though, and sometimes I mix them, so I use the IR goggles then for both.
I have a question on scratching and I will admit right up front that I have not gone back and looked at my pages of x-ray film negatives... Does anyone think that some of the scratching may come from being loaded with an emulsion side against the back of the film holder? I would think that it would mean all the scratches would generally run linearly in the direction of the film loading and unloading... and that's what I plan to check - - I just can't do it from work. I know that I pick up some scratches from the cutting process when I am not careful about the pieces being cut and they fall onto the plywood table top... those are definitely my fault.
A piece of felt on the plywood?
My scratches do not run in the direction of the film loading, but usually run at about a 45 degree angle from the sides. For what it is worth, my 11x14 holders are old and rough, but don't seem to scratch the film.
I'm going to put a sheet of glass down on the table on the cutting blade side of the paper cutter... so that the film that drops from the cut falls onto the smooth glass... so it should be lower impact to the film surface and easier to pick up... I also want to be more "purposeful" in my placement of the 8x10 sheet into the stops I glued to the paper cutter for making the actual cut... placing it in the right spot, being careful not to slide it into the right spot...Quote:
Originally Posted by venchka
My scratches are rather short and very random- I blame myself in handing the film in the tray- even one-at-a-time. Smooth bottom trays allow me to make scratches with my fingernails I guess. I have six sheets loaded for an excusion today, and good intentions to use hangers in tanks in Pyrocat HD. BTW, early-on I had successful tests but forgot that writing on the film to identify a sheet [at the loading flap] would end up in an important part of the image.
so it goes
What's the best technique for tray development with this X-ray (green sensitive) film? Earlier I agitated vigorously and flipped the sheet every couple minutes, but got lots of scratches. Yesterday I let the film sit 5 minutes/side with gentle sloshing; the scratches were a lot less, but I had uneven development (a lot of buildup at the edges of the frame). :confused:
Don't tray process. I never fully solved it, and went to hangars, thanks to the generosity of my hangar-donor.Quote:
What's the best technique for tray development with this X-ray (green sensitive) film?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterSense
Hangers only work for up to 8x10 (in general) and other odd large sizes such as 7x17 and 8x20, 20x24 all have to be tray processed because of lack of hangers and tanks to accomodate.
True. I was only thinking about 4x5 because that's what I shoot.
DannL
As I understand it, access of chemical to the backside is problematic in Jobo- but real Jobophiles can weigh in here. So unless one bleaches the emulsion off the back Jobo might not work well. Then again, if the rear emulsion is removed tray processing should not be such a scratch problem
Plain water dissolves the backing layers on normal film in my Jobo 3010. I imagine that fixer would get back there too and remove the second emulsion. Ooops. Senior moment. The print tubes may be different.
It is quite possible to use 11x14 hangers. These are still made by Wolf and are available new for about $50 per piece. The tanks are available used on eBay, and yesterday i even saw a complete 11x14 tank set with sink and inserts for sale (although it was in Billings, Montana). The problem for me is that the tanks take 5 gallons of chemicals to fill! Too much for me.
I bought some Xray film to play around with on 11x14. I believe it is double coated.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannL
I have never bleached anything. How do you bleach just one side of a negative without affecting the other side with the fixed image? Tape to glass?
I appreciate your guidance.
Thanks.
Rich
It's discussed earlier in the thread if you can find it. I believe it involves taping the negative to glass with masking tape, and using household bleach and a brush to remove the second emulsion. I've never tried it myself.
AAhhh
I didn't realize the bleach step was AFTER development, [ big fat duuuh here].
So the rear/bottom emulsion gets exposed,developed,discarded, and all my scratches go with it? Or do i worry about almost not visible scratches in the gelatine layer- from which silver compounds have been bleached?
regards
Ed
Thanks for the procedure. Seems simple enough that even I could do it! :)
Since this can be worked under safelight, it seems to me that it would be prudent to use a single hole punch or a pair of scissors to notch the film in the "customary" upper right corner when loading the holders. That would make it a lot easier to make certain you're working the proper side when removing the extraneous emulsion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannL
Or maybe it already is notched if you aren't cutting it down from large sheets.
No notches, or, I don't got to show you no steeenkin notches.
On 8x10 all 4 corners are rounded- hmm If one cuts to 4x5, the round corner serves
Tried the emulsion stripping last night. Worked rather well. Most of my scratches seem to happen while trying to pull the fill out of the holder. Rough fingers, fragile film not always a good mix.
I didn't have any painters tape so I used scotch tape. Wouldn't recommend it. To hard to get off. I used straight bleech in a spray bottle and a sponge brush .Other than that worked like a charm. My negs tend to be a little on the dense side anyway so this just evens it out.
Just got a delivery of film. This using the Kodak stuff -- first time out. VERY happy it's only about .25 a 'plate.'
Gosh, it's BLUE after development (D76) -- kinda like the Aristo.edu 400. Funky stuff.
Confession: The attachment's been photoshop'd to get rid of the shmutz and flare, but this is pretty much what the camera captured.
George
I put this in the alternative section but since it is shot on Green sensitive X-ray film I decided to post it here also. The negative was developed in Pyrocat-HD 1:1:150 in a tank for 16 1/2 minutes and printed in carbon.
Jim
Well, I thought I would post some follow up info for everyone using this film. I have been working on finding the developing that works the best for me and my eventual required negative density range for my carbon printing using the green sensitive film.
Here is a what I found. I develop in Pyrocat-Hd. I am using 1 gallon tanks and developing 4 sheets at a time. I am using 30ml of A, 30ml of B and 3600ml of water. I presoak for 5 minutes and then agitate for 1 1/2 minutes and then 10 seconds agitation every three minutes. I develop this way for 18 1/2 minutes and then I agitate normally for the last 3 minutes. 10 seconds every minute. The negatives match a similar image I have on Efke 25. My DR came in at 2.45Dr which for a carbon printer is very nice. The tonal ranges is outstanding with great shadow detail and the highlights under control. I can't wait to print the negatives. I do not have a way to scan the negatives and post them but I will post the print when I get it done. This works very well for me and my process and YRMV. I used an ISO of 80 for the green sensitive film BTW.
Jim
Last night I tried bag processing a sheet of green ortho X-ray film, and was happily surprised with results. I used a 1 gallon zip-lock bag that just fits a sheet of 8x10 film, and poured in the chemicals, vigorously sloshing it around in a tray to keep leaks from spilling around.
The results? A lot less scratching of the (very soft and touchy, 2 sided) emulsion - and I wasn't being overly gentle either. I'm going to revisit this in the future. :)
Thanks for the tip
I've had a coupla sheets of Blue to develope for a few months and have dreaded repeating my past scratches-
regards
Ed
I would be interested in the outcome also. I did get my supplies for my 11x14 hangers that I have in mind to make. If they work out I'll be sure to post an update. It will take me some time but I will update everyone. Using hangers for my 8x10 I have not scratched any x-ray film.
Jim
I like your ziplock bag trick. I'll give it a shot. I have been using 8x10 hangers, but that requires a hell of a lot of developer.
Jim, is your pyrocat at 21C?
I am considering buying some of the green sensitive for use with my large camera (with a 10X24" reducing back) but am worried about scratches, both in cutting the film down and in processing. My original idea was to develop in a 20X24" drum but from what you all have indicated the back of the film may scratch in inserting the film in the drum and removing it. Does the film scratch easily when dry, or does it only scratch when wet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Fitzgerald
Have anyone tried a pre-soak in a hardening bath?
Sandy
Hi Sandy,
I've been using the green sensitive film on and off for about a year now. The film scratches very easily when wet, but not so when dry. I have on the other hand, lightly scratched the film when inserting it into a film holder, so insertion has to be done with caution. To avoid this, I slip a wasted piece of film halfway into the holder before inserting the x-ray film. Seems to help.
I've cut x-ray with an exacto knife with no problems. Just have to be very careful. I imagine a rotary type cutter would work okay, as long as a protective paper was layed over top of the film.
Since the film has emulsion on both sides, I'm not sure if it would develop evenly in a drum. I use a flat bottom tray, agitate very little... and gently. The more I use this film, the more I like it.
What would you recommend for a hardening bath? Never tried one, but would like to.
I think that most prehardening baths use formalin, which I don't have so I have never tried it. Still I think a prehardening bath would work well. I currently use an alum-based hardening stop, which works well.
The film will scratch very easily wet or dry, so cutting will be a challenge. I imagine a rotary cutter would be best, but you will need to put a soft cloth on the base of your cutter and be careful while slipping it under the guide.
I currently line the bottom of my trays with a sheet a glass (obviously plastic would work too) and tray develop one 8x10 or 11x14 sheet at a time. For green sensitive (ISO 64) I use Rodinal 1:100 for 6 minutes (DR=1.4 with studio strobes) and agitate for three seconds every 30. I have very few scratches on my negatives. I would use hangers, but making gallons of chemicals is not economical for my limited use of the film.
Before buying a lot, make sure it is sharp enough for your purposes. I have not found the commonly available blue or green double-sided xray film to be very sharp, but it works for me as a cheap replacement for film.
I ran across some prehardener in the "Hot Deals" section of the Freestyle site , bought some, but have yet to try it. As it is intended for alternate/homemade emulsions I figure it won't hurt development.
Stupid question-
would this stuff survive international postage?
Any chance it's insensitive to the wavelengths used by scanners?
Does the lack of sharpness come from the coating on both sides? And is all of the xray film coated on both sides? Jim Fitzgerald is using this stuff for carbon transfer printing, which is a very sharp process, (with ULF negatives at that) and I can not imagine that he would be using the stuff if it did not give sharp results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Greenberg Motamedi
Sandy King