Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images

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Originally Posted by maltfalc

blue or green? don't expect anyone to tell you if you overexposed or overdeveloped when none of us can see the negative.

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I believe the film is green. Here's a scan of one of the negatives.Attachment 226227

Photo of film hanging from drying: Attachment 226228

Photo of film with back light: Attachment 226229

Again first time using this camera and the lenses. Trying x-ray film as an "economical" way to experiment

My notes indicate f/16 @ 1/25 second but shutter speed to be verified. Sunny day. aah, sunny 16 would indicate 1/100 second @ iso 100 rating.

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

Too many unknown variables to consider any solution

I use Green X-Ray which is NOT GREEN, as it is cheapest

I use known shutters with known apertures and always consider bellows factor. I test my shutters with a discontinued iPhone gismo

Daylight varies continuously, some meters are not correct

I mostly shoot studio flash, same 4 for years, very stable

A very good modern Sekonic Flash Meter is essential for me

However in daylight I always guess exposure by Sunny 16, as I shot Sunny 16 ONLY for 40 years

Then I check with Sekonic

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I'll check the shutter and verify. I am going to do some more experimenting at different film speed "ratings" and compare against "sunny 16" Just checked my notes exposure was f/16 at 1/25 second. Sunny 16 should have indicated 1/100 second at iso 100 film rating.

Lots of variables and note taking ahead.

I seem to have done pretty well with typical 4x5 films and roll films.

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Originally Posted by morecfm

Hello: I've kind of been lurking on this thread. I'm a first-time user of Fujifilm HR-U which also is my first time in 8x10 and tray developing. From previous reading elsewhere, I rated the film at ISO 100 and developed with HC-110 dilution B for 5 minutes. Results indicate over exposure by quite a bit. Also, as first time tray developing film, I dinged up the film during processing but I knew this was a possibility with this film. The film is drying now, so I will see how it scans tomorrow. I'm just wondering if I over exposed, over developed or a combination of both.

I'm going to be doing some serious bracketing to see what will work the best if my developing time and strength are close to recommended.

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I rate this film around EI80-100 and develop in HC-110 1+47 for 6 minutes or 1+63 for 7 minutes.
So if you are using Dil B time should be around 3 minutes.
Hope this helps.

Hello all,

I'm new to the site and to this thread, and I will soon be delving into X-ray film for use with a 5x7 camera (I ordered the Fuji 8x10 green film and intend to cut it to fit my holders).

I plan on using D23 diluted quite a bit. Does anyone have any suggestions for dilution and development times? I've been clicking through the pages but haven't found this yet. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by the4x5project

I rate this film around EI80-100 and develop in HC-110 1+47 for 6 minutes or 1+63 for 7 minutes.
So if you are using Dil B time should be around 3 minutes.
Hope this helps.

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Thanks. This will give me a place to start over again. This is information I am looking for.

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

Too many unknown variables to consider any solution

I use Green X-Ray which is NOT GREEN, as it is cheapest

I use known shutters with known apertures and always consider bellows factor. I test my shutters with a discontinued iPhone gismo

Daylight varies continuously, some meters are not correct

I mostly shoot studio flash, same 4 for years, very stable

A very good modern Sekonic Flash Meter is essential for me

However in daylight I always guess exposure by Sunny 16, as I shot Sunny 16 ONLY for 40 years

Then I check with Sekonic

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I'm getting some answers. I checked the shutter speed with an Iphone app with an optical adapter. 1/25 on the ilex lens was actually 1/5 and the compur shutter 1/9 second. A scenario ripe for over exposure. Now to keep the results with my kit. I need to learn to use longer shutter speeds with these lenses.

Now to test my 4x5 kit. (more lenses, more work)

Testing old shutters is smart!
The “green” refers to spectral sensitivity range and was intended to let the medical user know what kind of film holder with what specific phosphor lining to use to convert the X-rays to visible light to enhance sensitivity and lower the X-ray dose to the patient.
Since your film doesn’t “see” the entire visible light spectrum your light meter, even if modern, will sometimes suggest incorrect exposures. Early in the day or late in the day it can be up to several stops wrong because the color of the light is more toward the red (insensitive) portion of the spectrum. Incandescent light or similar color temperature fluorescent or LED indoors will also do this. I’d expect studio flash to be better because it is more full spectrum and very repeatable.

Putting in front of the lightmeter's sensor a filter that cuts away the spectrum the film does not see, will it force the meter to give result more in the range of the film.
In pracitcal terms: measuring trough a green filter will it give more accurate results, even late/early in the day?

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Originally Posted by Eugen Mezei

Putting in front of the lightmeter's sensor a filter that cuts away the spectrum the film does not see, will it force the meter to give result more in the range of the film.
In pracitcal terms: measuring trough a green filter will it give more accurate results, even late/early in the day?

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green x-ray film is orthochromatic, so you want a cyan filter.

Have you tried that?

I have not

I have not seen anything about it in the X-Ray thread

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Originally Posted by maltfalc

green x-ray film is orthochromatic, so you want a cyan filter.

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Why cyan an not green?

Blue skies

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Originally Posted by Eugen Mezei

Why cyan an not green?

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But you cut the blue away with the yellow filter you put on the taking lens.

Btw, where can one buy cyan filters?

Show and tell please
I don’t use filters

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Originally Posted by Eugen Mezei

But you cut the blue away with the yellow filter you put on the taking lens.

Btw, where can one buy cyan filters?

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Eugen

Do you only do research?

I just reviewed your posts to 2013

Your language seems to be american english

I see you bought some x-Ray a while back

Did you try it?

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Originally Posted by Eugen Mezei

But you cut the blue away with the yellow filter you put on the taking lens.

Btw, where can one buy cyan filters?

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The idea behind using a cyan filter on the meter would be to make the meter “see” more like the film does. Loosely speaking, an orthochromatic film can’t see red light, so if the meter can’t see red light either, it might give more useful exposure readings for the film. It’s not going to work perfectly but anyway. A cyan filter such as the Wratten 44A (“minus red”) would be one to try. This assumes no filter on the taking lens.

If you use a yellow filter on the taking lens, to attenuate blue, you’re effectively using mostly green light to expose the film, in which case a green filter on the meter would better approximate how the film sees.

These will only be approximate adjustments due to the inherent differences in spectral sensitivities of the meter and film. Obviously the specific filter used on the taking lens will affect this.

Well done Michael R

Eugen, ask him questions

Thank you both

Michael, that is exactly what I meant. Thank you for explaining it better. Also thanks for mentioning the minus red filter, I will look out for one.

Tin Can: Nope, my English is not american. It is just bad. Where are you from? I bought a lot of X-ray from German Ebay.

I am from the middle of USA, Chicago

Moved often since child

I bought only from https://www.zzmedical.com/x-ray-acce...-ray-film.html

I experiment more than some members like

rules are to be broken

If you want slightly darker blue sky, or better separation between cloud and sky, with green latitude x-ray film, use a yellow filter. The strongest I have used is a #15.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...96b269a7_b.jpgAshton Pond Norma Handy HRU Mic-X by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...881ae3bc_b.jpgAshton Pond Norma Handy HRU Mic-X 2 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Sinar Norma 4x5 Custom Made HANDY 4x5 XRAY HRU 1 sec F22 Sinar Norma Medium Yellow 108mm Glass Disk. Camera mounted on Star-D tripod. Legacy Mic-X Replenished Straight in Cesco flat bottomed tray under red safelight. Omega DII 180mm black Rodagon laser aligned. Arista RC #2 Multigrade dev

The yellow filter darkened the sky slightly. I prefer this

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...636493da_b.jpgHRU Filter test 1 YG 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...001c7bc5_b.jpgHRU Filter test 2 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5ae8cac8_b.jpgHRU Filter test 3 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...27099208_b.jpgHRU Filter test 4 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

Testing the Norma 108mm Glass Disks Yellow Green versus Dark Yellow. I like em both

I prefer to shoot 9x12cm with the Handy as it's pushing it to use it with 4x5. You can seen the darkening in the corners. It really dosen't cover even with center filter. Sinar Norma 9x12cm holders are much better for my uses

Very good 'SHOW and Tell'

This is exactly what we need more of

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Daniel Unkefer

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...636493da_b.jpgHRU Filter test 1 YG 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...001c7bc5_b.jpgHRU Filter test 2 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5ae8cac8_b.jpgHRU Filter test 3 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...27099208_b.jpgHRU Filter test 4 Yellow Dark 103mm Norma by Nokton48, on Flickr

Testing the Norma 108mm Glass Disks Yellow Green versus Dark Yellow. I like em both

I prefer to shoot 9x12cm with the Handy as it's pushing it to use it with 4x5. You can seen the darkening in the corners. It really dosen't cover even with center filter. Sinar Norma 9x12cm holders are much better for my uses

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You're Welcome TC

What's everyones recommendations for exposure when shooting with strobes? I've been shooting Fuji HRU recently at ISO 80, developing in XTOL 1:1 for 6 mins. Getting good results with natural light portraits but VERY thin negs when shooting with strobes (Broncolor Mobilites / Godox AD300). What's a good starting point for exposure? Do I need to drop to around 20 or so?

Do a ring-around bracketing, take copious notes, and then you will know. I use old Blue Broncolor Pulso Monolights and packs with XRay. Often I get into doing multiple pops of the strobe, if not dealing with moving subjects.

How under are your results approximately? I would adjust to that median, and bracket 1/2 stops both ways in your tests. Then let us know the results here :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5d059d49_b.jpg18x24 Mammo Sinar Norma 300 Xenar Arista No 2 RC by Nokton48, on Flickr

This was four pops of Broncolor C171 375 watt seconds. Background painted by David Maheu

Great, thank you! I'll run some tests today. My negs were pretty much transparent with only a little highlight detail - but funnily enough, the scanner provided somewhat usable images. I'm shooting portraits mainly so multiple pops won't be an option. My Broncolors however can put out a combined 2800w/s so shouldn't be an issue haha.

I have two Broncolor Pulso 606 packs which will do each do 6000ws in a single pop. Get out your sunglasses LOL

Good Luck and post some results here

I'll share some recent portraits... The studio/flash lit ones are super thin negs which the scanner managed to recover...kind of.

Attachment 226602

Attachment 226603

Attachment 226604

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Originally Posted by kdotlowe

I'll share some recent portraits... The studio/flash lit ones are super thin negs which the scanner managed to recover...kind of.

Attachment 226602

Attachment 226603

Attachment 226604

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Those are excellent

And here's a quick test. Shot at EI 10 with a single godox AD300 strobe. Straight out of the scanner.

Attachment 226608

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Originally Posted by kdotlowe

What's everyones recommendations for exposure when shooting with strobes? I've been shooting Fuji HRU recently at ISO 80, developing in XTOL 1:1 for 6 mins. Getting good results with natural light portraits but VERY thin negs when shooting with strobes (Broncolor Mobilites / Godox AD300). What's a good starting point for exposure? Do I need to drop to around 20 or so?

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I use PCB Einsteins with Carestream half-speed blue in the studio. I rate the film ISO 25 under those conditions. But bear in mind I'm using a Packard shutter — so I'm not sure how accurate the nominal 1/25th second exposure is. I suppose I could put a modern lens with a Copal shutter on my camera & do some tests. If I do I'll let you know the results.

Good lows, mids and highs. Looks like you nailed it XTOL six minutes? So now u know

Have been playing a little bit more wit the Xray. Fuji HRU. IE 10 with only strobe light, XTOL 1:1 6 Minutes.

Attachment 227242

Kallitype print made from 14x17 double-sided, green latitude. Developed in D-23 1+1 in a flat-bottomed tray. I posted the video in the On Photography section.

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...626fbd50_c.jpgSouth Lawn Bld by Andrew O'Neill, on Flickr

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Originally Posted by Jim Noel

It most likely is over-exposed. Have yu tried it at a speed of 100? 200?
What developer and for how long?
I have found that most x-ray films will yield a reasonable negative at a speed of 100, exposed during the middle of the day.
Perhaps your developer is too active. Have you ried diluting it 1 part developer and 2 parts water?
Are you developing under a red safelight kept at least 4 ft away? This wil give yo the oportunity to watch it develop, andmy money is on your under-developing in the beginning.

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Hello Mr. Jim
Please, I would like to have some help.
This is my first time developing an X-ray film and I was hoping for some guidance.

This is Fuji Blue X-ray film. Filmed at ISO 25 with a 4x5 camera
I have the original Rodinal raw.
I have a reel for development that I have 3D printed, because I use dishes as I don't have a safe light.
according to your ink,
Optimal Rodinal Dilution
Suggested time, temperature, agitation.
thank you very much .
Attachment 228026

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Originally Posted by kdotlowe

What's everyones recommendations for exposure when shooting with strobes? I've been shooting Fuji HRU recently at ISO 80, developing in XTOL 1:1 for 6 mins. Getting good results with natural light portraits but VERY thin negs when shooting with strobes (Broncolor Mobilites / Godox AD300). What's a good starting point for exposure? Do I need to drop to around 20 or so?

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Exposure with electronic flash depends on the unit. They put out different amounts of blue and UV which are important to the x-ray film. I wonder if adding a blue gel would help decrease the amount of exposure needed.

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Originally Posted by largeformatposer88

Hello all,

I'm new to the site and to this thread, and I will soon be delving into X-ray film for use with a 5x7 camera (I ordered the Fuji 8x10 green film and intend to cut it to fit my holders).

I plan on using D23 diluted quite a bit. Does anyone have any suggestions for dilution and development times? I've been clicking through the pages but haven't found this yet. Thanks!

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I don't know what you mean by "quite a bit", but most people I know use it at 1:3. Since I develop everything by inspection, i can't suggest times.

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Originally Posted by Jim Noel

Exposure with electronic flash depends on the unit. They put out different amounts of blue and UV which are important to the x-ray film. I wonder if adding a blue gel would help decrease the amount of exposure needed.

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I may be wrong but a filter being subtractive it wouldn't add any more of the required wavelengths to the emulsion and so at least do nothing and probably just increase the needed power from the strobe.

Jim is correct as always

I wish I had been told to to process by inspection 11 years ago

However, I process often in gas burst tanks with 1/100 Rodinol and you will need to find your own times, temps, agitation

Plan on running 100 sheets just testing

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Originally Posted by Jim Noel

I don't know what you mean by "quite a bit", but most people I know use it at 1:3. Since I develop everything by inspection, i can't suggest times.

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

Jim is correct as always

I wish I had been told to to process by inspection 11 years ago

However, I process often in gas burst tanks with 1/100 Rodinol and you will need to find your own times, temps, agitation

Plan on running 100 sheets just testing

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Attachment 228038Attachment 228038

The first picture is with Rodinal
Second photo with Kalogen 1:100 - - 5 minutes - 25 degrees Celsius
Continuous agitation at 8 rpmAttachment 228039

https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ntrated-recipe

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Originally Posted by mohmadkhatab

Attachment 228038Attachment 228038

The first picture is with Rodinal
Second photo with Kalogen 1:100 - - 5 minutes - 25 degrees Celsius
Continuous agitation at 8 rpmAttachment 228039

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Well, I am getting the feeling that the quality control in manufacturing of Fuji Xray film is lacking. Over the past 4-5 years I have purchased five 100 sheet boxes. All have been 8X10 but my most recent is 7X17. I got a very similar defect in one of the 8X10 boxes as I am now getting in my 7X17 box.

Shot and processed this morning trying out my home-made back that I mount on my 8X10 camera:
https://www.dl.dropboxusercontent.co...5_1a.jpg?raw=1


The negative is covered with little dots of minus density. I purchased this box new back in December and recently opened it. It has been stored at room temp.
https://www.dl.dropboxusercontent.co..._1a2.jpg?raw=1

Both bad boxes are Fuji Super - one is HR-T and one HR-U, purchased several years apart. Both are the Green sensitive.

So, my experience with Fuji Xray film is not very good.

Did it come from eBay?

99% of my X-Ray bought in date from ZZ a major X-Ray products for 'real' medical X-Ray supplier

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Originally Posted by Randy

Well, I am getting the feeling that the quality control in manufacturing of Fuji Xray film is lacking. Over the past 4-5 years I have purchased five 100 sheet boxes. All have been 8X10 but my most recent is 7X17. I got a very similar defect in one of the 8X10 boxes as I am now getting in my 7X17 box.

Shot and processed this morning trying out my home-made back that I mount on my 8X10 camera:
https://www.dl.dropboxusercontent.co...5_1a.jpg?raw=1


The negative is covered with little dots of minus density. I purchased this box new back in December and recently opened it. It has been stored at room temp.
https://www.dl.dropboxusercontent.co..._1a2.jpg?raw=1

Both bad boxes are Fuji Super - one is HR-T and one HR-U, purchased several years apart. Both are the Green sensitive.

So, my experience with Fuji Xray film is not very good.

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That's interesting. I've shot a lot of the Fuji and never seen that. Out of curiosity, what developer?

Are you sure it's not caused by you? I ask because I had similar flaws with Ektascan. I was using Obisidian Aqua and semi-stand at the time, citric acid stop, and Ilford Rapid fix. I switched to D-23, and reduced fix time to one minute. Problem solved. It could have been caused by the OA, and semi-stand, I don't know...

Hi,

Does anyone know if they made film development hangers for full plate (6 1/2 x 8 1/2) film?

My usual development for X-ray (4x5, 5x7 and 8x10) is on hangers in tanks. Its the only way I avoid scratching the film.

Thanks, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Andrew O'Neill

Are you sure it's not caused by you? I ask because I had similar flaws with Ektascan. I was using Obisidian Aqua and semi-stand at the time, citric acid stop, and Ilford Rapid fix. I switched to D-23, and reduced fix time to one minute. Problem solved. It could have been caused by the OA, and semi-stand, I don't know...

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I am sure it could be something that I am doing. I will just have to experiment...I guess. Could be fixing to long - like 4 minutes...? Just a water stop-bath.

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Originally Posted by Tin Can

Did it come from eBay?

99% of my X-Ray bought in date from ZZ a major X-Ray products for 'real' medical X-Ray supplier

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Got it from ZZ.

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Originally Posted by Corran

That's interesting. I've shot a lot of the Fuji and never seen that. Out of curiosity, what developer?

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Adox Rodinal 1:100, 75° for 4.5 minutes.

They must have, but not for USA

I too have looked

Perhaps cut some down, tiny cutting wheel

It can be done

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Originally Posted by Aerostigmat

Hi,

Does anyone know if they made film development hangers for full plate (6 1/2 x 8 1/2) film?

My usual development for X-ray (4x5, 5x7 and 8x10) is on hangers in tanks. Its the only way I avoid scratching the film.

Thanks, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Randy

Shot and processed this morning trying out my home-made back that I mount on my 8X10 camera:

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Let us see that back.