How to do tray processing - both regular and stand?

Hi all,

Ive never developed negative film, neither BW nor C41. Ive developed lots of E6 and BW reversal using a Jobo (always several films at the same time).

However, I tought Id develop some C41 and BW neg film - one sheet at the time - in which case starting the Jobo might be more of a hassle then help considering the numbers of steps are less for negative film.

For 8x10 I tought doing this in trays would be a nice way to do it. But, how are you folks doing this? I'm particularly curious on how to agitate trays and when/how you wash the film?

Also, did anyone do stand development in trays for 8x10 film - how?

Cheers
Peter

I guess the obvious answer is to refer you to Ansel Adams "The Negative" for great instructions on how to process film in trays.

If you're intent on doing 10x8 sheet film individually, then you could either go for traditional tray processing OR get hold of a Paterson Orbital tray which is configurable for 5x4 (4 sheets), 5x7 (2 sheets) or 10x8 (1 sheet) and is a daylight tray once loaded.

Trays are agitated by rocking, or by swapping multiple sheets over, from the bottom of the stack to the top at regular intervals.

Mike

Long ago I used a Heathkit Color Canoe to develop single sheets of 8x10 film. This tray has a curved bottom that requires perhaps 1.5 ounces of each chemical per sheet. The tray is rocked back and forth for agitation. It can be floated in a larger tray for temperature control. Color Canoes an perhaps similar trays from other makers may appear for sale online.

Egads, what suggestions. The special trays mentioned are nice, but difficult to find.
for 8x10 - get an 11x14 smooth bottom tray, or one with depressed slots running lengthwise.
Put the developer of choice in the tray, about 8-10 ounces is sufficient. Put the same amount of water in a second tray, and fixer in a third.
Here is a simple but very effective method which has served me well for over 80 years.
Place the film inthe developer emulsion up and tapit with a knuckle to assure it is submerged.
Lift each corner in succession 1-1/5" for 30 seconds. then each 30 seconds lift 3 corners as previously. Continue until time has elapsed, then lift film by a corner,let it drain for about 15 seconds and place in second tray. Agitate as before for 1 minute then follow the same procedure and place in fixer. agitate in a similar manner for a minute then turn on the light and continue for twice as long as it takes to clear the film.
To wash, empty the 1st 2 trays and fill with water. Move film from fixer tofirst trayand agitate for a minute, then move to 2nd tray and repeat. continue this for 5 minutes,then add LFN or a drop or 2 of dishwashing liquid detergent in one of the trays. Agitate the film in this for one minute then hang to dry.
Good luck and have fun!

You'll get as many methods for tray developing as there are people doing it. Here's mine: [Edit: I just posted this and saw how long it was... Don't despair, it's really much harder to describe than to do. Take the time to slog through this, I think it will be helpful.]

I learned the AA shuffling method years ago and it has served me well. I prefer trays with grooves in the bottom (Paterson) and not the ones with ridges (they'll scratch the film) or flat ones (the film has a tendency to stick).

I develop film in a tray one size larger than the film, e.g., 11x14 tray for 8x10 film in your case (I shoot 4x5 and use deep 5x7 trays).

Get everything set up with the lights on: trays for pre-soak (if you do that), developer, stop, fix and a water holding tray. Make sure all solutions are the temperature you need before starting. I use a Zone VI compensating developing timer, but any timer with a dim LED readout that is shielded from the developer tray will work just fine. Old Gralab timers work just fine too. A footswitch for the timer is nice.

Get your film holder(s) laid out, make sure you know where everything is and how to find your way around in the dark. Now is the time to don your nitrile gloves if you wear them (I always do). Now turn off the lights. Unload your filmholder(s) and get to work. (Note: unloading filmholders with gloves on is not as easy as without them, but easier than trying to put on the gloves in total darkness... at least for me. If you have trouble getting the film out of the holder, breathe gently on it a time or two and then wait a few seconds. The film will buckle from the humidity and you'll be able to get a finger under it).

How you submerge and agitate the film is important. I find that tray rocking is inadequate, but some use it with success. I usually develop several sheets of film at a time, so tray rocking is out anyway. I shuffle from the bottom of the stack to the top.

The basic technique is simple but really worth practicing with scrap sheets first to get the hang of it. First, fan the sheets of film in your hand so you can grab each individually easily. With 8x10 film, I'd only do two to four sheets at a time. Immerse a sheet emulsion-side-up by laying it on top of the solution and pushing it down gently (not quickly, or you'll get surge at the edges) with a slight rocking motion. Repeat with the next sheet in five-second intervals (or longer - more later). To agitate, pull a sheet from the bottom of the stack by lifting the ones above it slightly and pulling the bottom sheet out smoothly and almost flatly. If you lift up too fast, you'll drag it along a corner of the films above it and scratch it. Once the sheet is out, turn it 180° and re-immerse it on the top of the stack, pushing down gently and slowly as before. Be sure the film hits the solution flat; if you put it in corner-first, you'll scratch the film below it. I like to keep the stack of film together in one end of the tray; don't let them float around randomly, but keep them corralled with one hand while the other does the shuffling.

I like to go through the stack once every 30 seconds, so I adjust my shuffling interval accordingly. Six sheets needs five-second intervals; easy with 4x5 film, but likely too hectic with larger film. Three sheets need 10-second intervals, two sheets, 15 second intervals, etc. If you are only developing one sheet, agitate at 15 second intervals by lifting the film out, turning it 180° and re-immersing it. This is exactly the same as once through the stack in 30 seconds with more films.

Okay, let's go step-by-step: If you presoak, immerse the films one at a time in the pre-soak. If you are developing more than one sheet, leave 10 seconds or so between sheets or they will stick together. This is not disastrous in the pre-soak, but can be in the developer! Don't develop several sheets at once in the developer without pre-soaking them. If films stick together, be patient and work them slowly apart from a corner. It can take several minutes. The pre-soak time needs to be two to five minutes. I like longer. Keep track of which film you started with by turning it so the code notches are 180° from the rest.

After the pre-soak, gather the films together in a corner of the tray, making sure the first film is on the bottom of the stack. Lift them to drain, and fan them out again. Start your timer (footswitch!) and immerse the films into the developer using the shuffle interval you have chosen (e.g., one film every 10 seconds if you're developing three sheets). Now just keep your interval; lift a film out of the solution, turn it, and re-immerse it, one every shuffle interval so you're going through the stack once every 30 seconds.

Near the end of the development time, after the last sheet has hit the top of the stack, gather the sheets together, lift them out and let them drain. Fan them out as before and immerse them into the stop one-at-a-time working from the bottom of the stack (sheet #1) using the same interval that you shuffled with. This insures that all sheets get exactly the same development.

Shuffle in the stop, but now the exact interval is not so important and you don't need to turn the film every shuffle. After the time in the stop is up, gather the sheets together (order is no longer important) and transfer the whole stack to the fix (or whatever - I'm describing black-and-white processing. Color has more steps but the technique is the same. Only the developer needs the right order, right agitation interval and the turning of the film to ensure even developing). Shuffle through the stack for a minute then dip your hands in the water holding tray (to rinse off the fixer) and then turn on the lights.

The rest of the fixing time can happen with the lights on. Transfer the film to the water rinse tray after the fixing time is up. After a quick rinse, you can begin washing. If you have a slot-type washer of the right size, you can use that. I have dedicated washers for 4x5. If you do 8x10, an 8x10 print washer works great. If you don't have such a washer, you'll need running water in a tray and constant agitation. A tray siphon works, but I prefer a dedicated tray with a row of small holes drilled at one end a the bottom of the tray wall. I just clip a hose to the opposite end and let the water run. If you have several sheets to wash, you'll need to agitate them during the wash time using the same shuffle method. If you're just doing one sheet, do pick it up and re-immerse it several times during the wash to ensure that the back of the film get washed.

Note that if you're developing one sheet at a time, all you need is 15-second intervals and make sure to turn the film in the developer every shuffle. Once you develop one-at-a-time for a while, you'll want to be able to do more at once. The shuffle technique is really great an allows you to develop as many sheets at one time as you are comfortable with. Tray rocking limits you to one sheet at-a-time.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Brush processing in trays works well. One sheet at a time.

Richeson or Hake brush works well.

Dedicated trays - or pyrex glass cooking trays - whatever you like as long as clean and smooth on the bottom so you don't pick up scratches.

Gentle up and down, then side to side brush technique. Then down and up and side to side the other way. Very clean and even processing.

If you want direction and feel better that way contact Paula Chamlee at http://www.michaelandpaula.com and set up a workshop with her. Direct demonstration - hands on. She tray processes LF film and has for years. She and her late husband Michael A. Smith both teach it at their workshops. They teach shuffling, not brush development but do show development by inspection using the green safelight.

Hi all,

And thanks for very informativ responses - it is much appreciated. I'll start out doing one negative at the time, but to know that its possible to do several is also good. I'll try that as soon as I get good results with single sheets.

Thanks again :-)

In the March/April 2005 issue of VIEWCAMERA magazine, pages 40-42, Steve Sherman published a very interesting article on Stand and Semi-Stand Development. Does anyone know if this article is available online? Info in that article would be great for the OP to have and refer to.

When you start and are using time/temperature guides shoot a few of the same scene, same exposure. Something with good shadows and bright areas as well as mid tones - a scene with a full tonal range.

First few developing attempts use these negatives.

Will help a lot getting your developing time right or very close to right for how you handle the negatives in the chemistry.

Develop the negative and then make a contact print so you see the result easily. Reading the print is usually easier than reading a negative when trying to see the fine detail and differences development brings out. Enjoy the darkroom time with the negatives. Can be relaxing for some of us.

Thanks again all - and for pointing me in the right direction regarding stand development.

for stand with dilute developers I would imagine a filled closed tube would be easier since you do not need to agitate often and can spend time with lights on between chem changes. Stearman Press also is now making an 8x10 sealed tray with light traps so you can process in the light.

and some do stand development for very long times

DIY tubes are also possible

make one

8x10 in an 8x10 tray. I do single sheets. I don't do enough shooting. I just "giggle" it every 30 seconds. Sometimes i just tilt the tray back and forth like in a rocking fashion.

Oh also, I use 1 liter of developer. And I'll just do a few sheets one by one. I'm in no rush to process 3 or 4 or 5 8x10's. I'd rather not reduce contact and scratches than save time at that point. Once you develop the neg, there ain't no going back, it's done.

It's like baking bread, once you stick it in the oven, there's no more kneading or proofing, its too late.

I know this is an old thread, but I hope some of you will still see this. I'm having trouble tray processing 8x10 sheets.

I've processed this 8x10 sheet ( along with two others) in an 11x14 paterson tray with grooved bottom in 4 litres of rodinal at 1:100 dilution. Developing time was around 10 minutes with continuous shuffling, going through the stack every 30 sec, rotating 180 degrees every 2 - 3 mins. Pre soaked for around 5 - 10 minutes shuffling constantly.

I exposed the wall for zone 6-7 but I applied some digital burning to the scan to bring out the artifacts a little more. I process with IR goggles so I can see what I'm doing , but clearly something is wrong.

I shuffled 3 sheets of fp4 emulsion side facing up, tray in vertical orientation, long side of the film against the short side of the tray.

I believe top left and bottom right corners is where I pick up the sheet from the bottom of the stack. ( see image below )

Multiple things have gone wrong and this is not the first time, I've been having problems with it for a while with similar results from hc110 and pyrocat hd. Brush development gave some nice results, but even with that I can't get big areas of clear skies evenly developed ( at least most of the times not ). Anyways, I want to get my shuffling right as it's more time efficient and hake brushes go stiff and start scatching the negs after only 5-10 sheets processed.

So these are the things I thing I can see:

- parallel vertical lines all over the image - I get this problem very often with large areas with no or very little detail that fall on zone 6-7. Under agitation ? I go at a constant pace at one sheet every 10sec ( have a metronome helping me ) shuffling 3 sheets. Is it initial agitation problem? Do I need to shuffle faster or something at the beginning ?

- darker areas from bottom left to top right corner plus additional darkening near the other two corners. I guess this is me pushing down the sheets. This is done by my left hand ( I'm lefty) plus I help with one or two fingers of my right hand that's keeping the stack together. I push the film down gently and it stays relatively flat while going down (I'm pushing straight down). How do you do this without leaving these areas underdeveloped ?

- then there's this rectangle in the middle, maybe from me pushing the neg down ? Puzzled

I understand I have a lot of questions, and appreciate any help.

Also, thanks for reading.

Balazs

Attachment 222612

I do shuffle method in dimple-bottomed stainless trays (themselves within a temp controlled oversized water jacket), and have no interest in just "standing around" waiting forever.

Balazs, Are you sure you have not tried using a Mirror lens to photograph a Vampire? ;-)

Back to reality. Try doing one sheet only and see how it looks. Keep the film in the middle of the tray, not against any sides. Don't use the grooved tray, just a flat bottom one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Willie

Balazs, Are you sure you have not tried using a Mirror lens to photograph a Vampire? ;-)

Back to reality. Try doing one sheet only and see how it looks. Keep the film in the middle of the tray, not against any sides. Don't use the grooved tray, just a flat bottom one.

---

I wish it was a vampire hahaha ��

The thing is, if I do brush development, it is somewhat better, but it still isn't completely evenly developed in the areas like the white wall shot. Whe shuffling the negs, keeping them in the middle leaves you very little space for handling.

When I do one sheet alone, I still have the streaking, the rest is mich better, but the streaking is still very annoying.

Does a flat bottom tray offer cleaner negs ? I've tried one and my results were not very different.

Not sure what it is.

Streaking is a symptom of uneven development. Flat bottom trays are NOT better. You want your emulsion UP. But having dimples (not grooves) on the bottom of the tray allows more even circulation of chemicals overall. Otherwise, there is a distinct technique to shuffle development. You want an oversize tray with ample solution volume. What I do is after each shuffle cycle, rotate the film stack 90 degrees each time, so that the film is being swished through the developer by holding a different side of the film each time, greatly improving evenness. And do just enough sheets at a time so that you're neither in a rush nor just let them sit too long without shuffling. I'll typically do 6 to 8 sheets of 4X5 at a time per each 30 second interval, or 3 to 5 sheets of 8x10. I get more even results that way than the single-sheet method.

Overdevelopment at the edges is the result of pushing the film down to vigorously into the developer, causing a surge along the edge. Two things: You say you use four liters of solution in a 11x14 tray, which seems like an awful lot to me. In any case the solution will be rather deep and pushing film quickly all the way down from the surface to the bottom of the tray is almost bound to cause surge marks. Try two liters (heck, I use two liters of solution in 12x16 trays just fine). Also, use the tips of your (gloved) fingers to kind of rock the film gently down to the bottom to avoid surge. I then "tickle" the center of the film with fingertips to agitate the center a bit before pulling the next sheet from the bottom.

A lot of unevenness can be caused be not agitating enough initially. If your shuffle interval is 10 seconds, try submerging a sheet and agitating it by lifting corners and otherwise moving it around for 10 seconds before adding the next sheet. This means you'll have to keep track of sheets and introduce them into the stop bath in the right order and at the same interval (approximately - a few seconds difference in a long development time is negligible). This will help get the initial absorption of the developer more even and complete. Just tossing in a stack and agitating from there is asking for trouble.

FWIW, I turn my sheets 180° with each shuffle. That randomizes things a bit more. Some turn the film 90° each shuffle, but I find working with the stack in different orientations risks more scratching.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Thank you both for your input, a lot of helpful tips from both sides, really. :)

Drew

I have nice big trays but with grooves instead of dimples, however it seems I need to rotate more frequently and the 90 degrees swishing the stack through the developer sounds interesting, I'll definitely give it a try. Also moving the neg around immediately after adding it to the developer sounds like a great idea.
I don't intend to overdo it with too many sheets at once, I would be more than happy with 3 or 4 at a time to shorten the time spent in the darkroom.


Doremus,

I used 4 litres of soup to give myself room get the bottom sheet out from the stack, but it may have been an overkill and a waste of chemistry. I bought my paterson trays as 11x14 but they're actually 12x16 ( or so it's written at the bottom ) and naturally they even bigger to accomodate bigger film. Might need smaller trays.. My thought was that the grooves of the tray eat up quite a bit of volume, reducing the useful depth to spearate the bottom sheet, although the grooves themselves do help. At the same time having to push through more volume means I have to do it quicker to keep up the pace and so increases the chance of surges, as you say. Is half an inch depth an overkill ?

I will try 2 litres and play around a bit with some already fixed and wasted film, trying to push film down with the very tips of my hands, and do the tickling bit in the middle. When you say rocking you mean you move the film slightly front-back left-right while pushing it down?

From now on I'll give the sheets a turn every time I shuffle through the stack.

Once again, thank you so much for the tips, I will report back with my findings.

Balazs

It helps to practice a few times with the lights on using voided film and plain water, so you can see how much rough solution agitation versus smooth processing is actually going on. A good pre-wetting step is also important, prior to development.

Balazs,

Do those vertical bands correspond to the grooves on your tray?

If not, I would be willing to bet they are your scanner. My V800 does that. Here is a scan of a perfectly blank (unexposed and fixed out) sheet of 8x10 x-ray film from my scanner:

Attachment 222691

The rest of the light/dark areas on your scan look like chemical flow issues to me. I don't understand the moon surface texture thing you're seeing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greg

In the March/April 2005 issue of VIEWCAMERA magazine, pages 40-42, Steve Sherman published a very interesting article on Stand and Semi-Stand Development. Does anyone know if this article is available online? Info in that article would be great for the OP to have and refer to.

---

Appreciate the shoutout Greg, this online article I wrote for UnblinkingEye is much more up to date on how I manage the EMA technique of film processing https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/RASS/rass.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balazs Szabo

I know this is an old thread, but I hope some of you will still see this. I'm having trouble tray processing 8x10 sheets.

I've processed this 8x10 sheet ( along with two others) in an 11x14 paterson tray with grooved bottom in 4 litres of rodinal at 1:100 dilution. Developing time was around 10 minutes with continuous shuffling, going through the stack every 30 sec, rotating 180 degrees every 2 - 3 mins. Pre soaked for around 5 - 10 minutes shuffling constantly.

I exposed the wall for zone 6-7 but I applied some digital burning to the scan to bring out the artifacts a little more. I process with IR goggles so I can see what I'm doing , but clearly something is wrong.

I shuffled 3 sheets of fp4 emulsion side facing up, tray in vertical orientation, long side of the film against the short side of the tray.

I believe top left and bottom right corners is where I pick up the sheet from the bottom of the stack. ( see image below )

Multiple things have gone wrong and this is not the first time, I've been having problems with it for a while with similar results from hc110 and pyrocat hd. Brush development gave some nice results, but even with that I can't get big areas of clear skies evenly developed ( at least most of the times not ). Anyways, I want to get my shuffling right as it's more time efficient and hake brushes go stiff and start scatching the negs after only 5-10 sheets processed.

So these are the things I thing I can see:

- parallel vertical lines all over the image - I get this problem very often with large areas with no or very little detail that fall on zone 6-7. Under agitation ? I go at a constant pace at one sheet every 10sec ( have a metronome helping me ) shuffling 3 sheets. Is it initial agitation problem? Do I need to shuffle faster or something at the beginning ?

- darker areas from bottom left to top right corner plus additional darkening near the other two corners. I guess this is me pushing down the sheets. This is done by my left hand ( I'm lefty) plus I help with one or two fingers of my right hand that's keeping the stack together. I push the film down gently and it stays relatively flat while going down (I'm pushing straight down). How do you do this without leaving these areas underdeveloped ?

- then there's this rectangle in the middle, maybe from me pushing the neg down ? Puzzled

I understand I have a lot of questions, and appreciate any help.

Also, thanks for reading.

Balazs

Attachment 222612

---

Uneven development is almost always due to developer strength is too weak, in conjunction with infrequent agitation (that's the biggest culprit). Lastly, the first initial agitation needs to be fairly vigorous in nature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balazs Szabo

Thank you both for your input, a lot of helpful tips from both sides, really. :)

Drew

I have nice big trays but with grooves instead of dimples, however it seems I need to rotate more frequently and the 90 degrees swishing the stack through the developer sounds interesting, I'll definitely give it a try. Also moving the neg around immediately after adding it to the developer sounds like a great idea.
I don't intend to overdo it with too many sheets at once, I would be more than happy with 3 or 4 at a time to shorten the time spent in the darkroom.


Doremus,

I used 4 litres of soup to give myself room get the bottom sheet out from the stack, but it may have been an overkill and a waste of chemistry. I bought my paterson trays as 11x14 but they're actually 12x16 ( or so it's written at the bottom ) and naturally they even bigger to accomodate bigger film. Might need smaller trays.. My thought was that the grooves of the tray eat up quite a bit of volume, reducing the useful depth to spearate the bottom sheet, although the grooves themselves do help. At the same time having to push through more volume means I have to do it quicker to keep up the pace and so increases the chance of surges, as you say. Is half an inch depth an overkill ?

I will try 2 litres and play around a bit with some already fixed and wasted film, trying to push film down with the very tips of my hands, and do the tickling bit in the middle. When you say rocking you mean you move the film slightly front-back left-right while pushing it down?

From now on I'll give the sheets a turn every time I shuffle through the stack.

Once again, thank you so much for the tips, I will report back with my findings.

Balazs

---

Rather than turning the stack of film 90 or 180 degrees, turn the tray and leave the film in its position and simply agitate the same way followed after turning the tray, less chance of damage. Whatever you decide on do it the same way each time and forget about various suggestions. Consistency to a fault is the key to film photography !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sabeluc

Balazs,

Do those vertical bands correspond to the grooves on your tray?

If not, I would be willing to bet they are your scanner. My V800 does that. Here is a scan of a perfectly blank (unexposed and fixed out) sheet of 8x10 x-ray film from my scanner:

Attachment 222691

The rest of the light/dark areas on your scan look like chemical flow issues to me. I don't understand the moon surface texture thing you're seeing.

---

Good point, but I think I can see the streaks on the negative, although very faintly and I have to admit I might be seeing them even if they're not there sometimes. I'm not sure though as I recall having one perfect neg with a large area of very clear skies (zone 7) that had none of the above issues. That neg was brush processed as single, but even with the same process I can't seem to achieve the same results.

The moon surface texture is an old white wall I've photographed purely for testing purpose :)

Steve,

Thank you very much for your advice.

This was indeed quite diluted and although agitation was continuous it was shuffling so maybe it still wasn't enough, and the initial agitation probably wasn't too vigorous either.

I usually process sheets as singles in Pyrocat HD at 1+1+100 using brush development these days, but I struggle getting consistent results, so I thought I'd give a shuffling one more try, given that my results were inconsistent and the time spent doing one sheet at a time was significant. Maybe this change was me asking for trouble and I should instead stick to just one method.

After reading your article posted above, I understand my pyrocat hd processing method might be flawed because I try doing RA in trays. I had one difficult neg come out perfectly so far with this method and that was with brush development, but even using the same technique I can't seem to repeat the results. I often get acceptable results but the goal would be to get consistently perfect negatives.

Before settling on the brush method, I tried paterson tank with spiral for 2 sheets. I used these tanks with success for everything up to and including 4x5 sheets, but my 8x10 negs were riddled with surgemarks and underdeveloped areas. No matter how I adjusted my agitation or the setup, these were consistently near the bits that hold the film and also near the top and bottom of the spiral that are practically circular discs with holes. I even tried loading in dark with no centre column as I concluded it reduced developer flow greatly as I could hear big bubbles with an uneven flow inside the tank with the inversions.
This was the only tank I was able to get apart from jobo that I'm not interested in.

I then bought and tried the sp810 daylight tray doing one sheet at a time and I also couldn't get it to work no matter how carefully I agitated. I find this tray brilliant for pre soaking and removing the anti halation layer.
On the advice that it was probably too small at least for me to consistently get good results processing 8x10 film without surgemarks or washbacks from the sides I went for the large trays I now use. So far these were the least expensive and most useful addition.

I tried shuffling or processing singles with these and then settled with the brush method I have used for a while now as this is so far what got me closest to my goal, but my hands shake a bit and I suspect this can be a problem when one is touching slowly stroking a negative with a brush.

A bit frustrated but I'm determined to learn from my mistakes as well as listening to others.

I also discovered recently that I probably shouldn't just do RA for all negatives, at least not with negatives this big and I now understand I have to adjust my process to suit the neg more closely. I was probably being ignorant because up until going 8x10 I got away without much trouble.

When things go reasonably well, I find the results rather rewarding.

Attachment 222711

I'd like to thank everyone else as well who offered me their insight and shared valuable tips here.

Oh, and also Happy Holidays :)

Balazs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balazs Szabo

I know this is an old thread, but I hope some of you will still see this. I'm having trouble tray processing 8x10 sheets.

I've processed this 8x10 sheet ( along with two others) in an 11x14 paterson tray with grooved bottom in 4 litres of rodinal at 1:100 dilution. Developing time was around 10 minutes with continuous shuffling, going through the stack every 30 sec, rotating 180 degrees every 2 - 3 mins. Pre soaked for around 5 - 10 minutes shuffling constantly.
Balazs

---

I believe this problem is because you are using too little developer which leads to unevenness when combined with rotating a stack of sheets. I suspect the developer is so dilute that it is exhausting unevenly between the sheets before the next rotation. If you insist on using Rodinal (which I dislike immensely) than use the recommended dilution of 1:50 or 1:25. If you are developing one or two sheets at a time, you do not need more than 1 liter of developer, so you are still using the same amount of Rodinal and not wasting developer needlessly.

I no longer develop 8x10 sheets in a stack. I will do two sheets at most, but prefer one at a time, for consistency sake. Once the sheet is in the developer, I do not lift it out of the tray until development is complete. Agitation is done by rocking the tray first in the vertical direction, then the horizontal, for five seconds in each direction, once a minute. I never, ever get uneven development marks.
I used to lift the sheets out of the developer to perform agitation, and I struggled to eliminate the hot bands I inevitably got on one (or two) sides as the developer ran off the edge. This is why I now avoid lifting the sheet out of the tray to agitate. Of course, if I do opt to do 2 at a time, this becomes necessary, and in this case, I lift the sheet out from under, swiftly and evenly, and plop it back down flat into the tray (totally avoiding letting developer run off to a corner) and gently press it back down. I'll say it again: if you allow the developer to run off the sheet during shuffling, you will encourage the formation of a "hot edge" on one or more sides where the developer activity gets a little kick from the increased physical action on the edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve Sherman

Rather than turning the stack of film 90 or 180 degrees, turn the tray and leave the film in its position and simply agitate the same way followed after turning the tray, less chance of damage. Whatever you decide on do it the same way each time and forget about various suggestions. Consistency to a fault is the key to film photography !!

---

I don't think that would do anything to counteract the flow patterns created when shuffling and/or re-submerging the film in the solution, although it might do something to counteract the dead spots in the solution itself. However, the goal is not to make sure the developer gets evenly mixed, but rather that the film is evenly developed. Randomness in agitation is the key to even developing. Turning the film 90° or 180° makes sure that the same side doesn't always get the surge from the side of the tray when re-submerging and it helps drain the developer from the film randomly when shuffling.

Best,

Doremus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder

I don't think that would do anything to counteract the flow patterns created when shuffling and/or re-submerging the film in the solution, although it might do something to counteract the dead spots in the solution itself. However, the goal is not to make sure the developer gets evenly mixed, but rather that the film is evenly developed. Randomness in agitation is the key to even developing. Turning the film 90° or 180° makes sure that the same side doesn't always get the surge from the side of the tray when re-submerging and it helps drain the developer from the film randomly when shuffling.

Best,

Doremus

---

While I haven't done tray processing in years, in the years that I did, my goal was to always handle the film as little as humanly possible, thus turning the tray rather than the stack of film. Every one does things slightly differently, it's most important that one finds the most consistent method, and not deviate once success has been achieved.

Cheers, SS

Michael Smith did testing to prove that rotating the film during development is totally not important. he did the tests and all the negatives came out with even contrast. I'm surely wondering why someone who knows zip about tray developing is interested in semi stand or whatever. here's the best advice from someone who has developed thousands of sheets of film in a tray. buy yourself some foma 4x5 film and practice. I can do 15 sheets at a time in a tray.
and if you really want to make good negatives get yourself a dark green filter and a foot switch and learn to develop by inspection. you will be so far ahead of the curve and will actually make good negatives. KISS is the mantra here.

Shuffle is impossible for my damaged hands

I tried all kinds of ways, even baggie processing 4X5. 1 at a time

It works!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peter schrager

Michael Smith did testing to prove that rotating the film during development is totally not important. he did the tests and all the negatives came out with even contrast. I'm surely wondering why someone who knows zip about tray developing is interested in semi stand or whatever. here's the best advice from someone who has developed thousands of sheets of film in a tray. buy yourself some foma 4x5 film and practice. I can do 15 sheets at a time in a tray.
and if you really want to make good negatives get yourself a dark green filter and a foot switch and learn to develop by inspection. you will be so far ahead of the curve and will actually make good negatives. KISS is the mantra here.

---

Peter,

Thank you for your comments.

I asked for tips on the shuffling method as clearly I'm doing almost everything wrong xD

Michael was clearly more talented and experienced than I am ( and will ever be ) and so I he got away without rotating. I am still very clumsy, so I guess rotating for me is essential even if I develop by inspection with ir goggles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve Sherman

While I haven't done tray processing in years, in the years that I did, my goal was to always handle the film as little as humanly possible, thus turning the tray rather than the stack of film. Every one does things slightly differently, it's most important that one finds the most consistent method, and not deviate once success has been achieved.
Cheers, SS

---

Steve,
FWIW, I turn every sheet 180° during the shuffle; not the whole stack. A bit of extra handling, but not that much since one is pulling a sheet from the bottom of the stack and replacing it on the top anyway; it's just one extra wrist flip and grab with the opposing hand. Anyway, I've always thought that the rotation was beneficial, but in light of what Peter posted, I'll have to reconsider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peter schrager

Michael Smith did testing to prove that rotating the film during development is totally not important. he did the tests and all the negatives came out with even contrast. I'm surely wondering why someone who knows zip about tray developing is interested in semi stand or whatever. here's the best advice from someone who has developed thousands of sheets of film in a tray. buy yourself some foma 4x5 film and practice. I can do 15 sheets at a time in a tray.
and if you really want to make good negatives get yourself a dark green filter and a foot switch and learn to develop by inspection. you will be so far ahead of the curve and will actually make good negatives. KISS is the mantra here.

---

Peter,
I would be interested in finding out more about Michael Smith's test methods and results regarding rotating the film during development. Is it up on the Michael and Paula website? Or do you have some info?

TIA

Best, and Merry Christmas all!

Doremus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder

Steve,
FWIW, I turn every sheet 180° during the shuffle; not the whole stack. A bit of extra handling, but not that much since one is pulling a sheet from the bottom of the stack and replacing it on the top anyway; it's just one extra wrist flip and grab with the opposing hand. Anyway, I've always thought that the rotation was beneficial, but in light of what Peter posted, I'll have to reconsider.




Peter,
I would be interested in finding out more about Michael Smith's test methods and results regarding rotating the film during development. Is it up on the Michael and Paula website? Or do you have some info?

TIA

Best, and Merry Christmas all!

Doremus

---

I always thought of you as an above average and accomplished wet process photographer. Why would you for a second, consider changing your routine that has obviously produced successful results over the years simply because a big name stated an “Opinion”. As far as MAS, I’ve stood next to him demoing the DBI with a Green light. I've seen hundreds and held dozens of his prints in my hands. I have great respect for what MAS did for the large film community, however, his technique was less than precise. Truth told, the paper (AZO) that he printed on had almost an endless contrast range, which made his negative design and resulting prints significantly easier than those from a negative designed for Silver Gelatin.
In my own workflow, I have an Amber colored filter (OC) for DBI, Amber because the stain of PyroCat is Amber rather than the Green stain associated with Pryogallol Acid based developers such as the ABC formula that MAS used. A Green DBI light for PyroCat users is useless. Lastly, not everyone understands when using the DBI technique, one must view the base side, not the emulsion side. Even at that, the DBI technique to determine highlight density is not precise enough for my desired results and I would not recommend the such a complicated approach.

Steve,

I'm not about to change a working system without good reason; I'm just too lazy :) Still, I'd be curious how Michael Smith determined that rotating film in trays when processing has no effect on evenness.

You provide interesting insights into Michael Smith's methods. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

As for DBI; I'm perfectly happy shuffling film in total darkness for 15 minutes. Time/temperature had worked well for me so far. I'm not going to change that either.

Best,

Doremus

You guys and it's ONLY guys have a point

YOUR WAY WORKS

for you

However we all need to find our own way as variables are endless

The easiest way to success is eliminate variables

and do it your way...