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Interesting 4x5 ... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery
"High quality acrylic" construction and "Future plans include both a 6x12 medium format roll film back and a 4x5 wet plate back."
[NOTE: The 2d photo below shows the design progression from 1st version on the left through the final version on the right.]
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I'm continually surprised by how large format just keeps plugging away. Of course what some of these new cameras show is that, there was a price point that had to be hit or people weren't interested. What would be fascinating to know is; if any of the backers/buyers of the various cheaper models move up to more expensive models later? Or just tire-kicking?
I think it's simpler than that, and that is that sheet film cameras are simpler to make... You put a (manufactured) lens & shutter on front, and you slip a CFH in back (no wind mechanism), no electronics, no sensor, no VF, and made without too much assembly from parts from the CNC machine, tap into a "trendy" film market, funding online, and there they go!!!
(The purple one looks like it came from the 99cent store, from next to the cheap sunglasses, near the (brown) emoji pillows... Hope it's dark in the camera...)
Steve K
Prototypes of this camera has been presented on this forum. in the "show your LF camera" thread - search for "Chroma" in that thread. Other than that, I am intrigued but I am not sure of the long term durability of the materials used (but that is not exclusive to this particular camera). In general though, the more, the merrier, I'd say. :)
Some of the market is probably people already "in there", looking for a light-weight alternative for hiking, for example. I just wish there was a way to get younger ones in, and especially women photographers.
I like the general look of it (did in the 'show your camera' thread) but I can't see how the focussing/film holder works. There is discussion of magnets, but nothing showing how it's done.
Neil
Yes, I was going to mention that he posted this in the DIY forum when he was working on it.
Out of curiosity I looked at the specs on weight - "Lightweight design with a total weight of 1592g" - that's about 3.5 pounds. That's actually way heavier than I expected for such a camera.
I'm not interested personally but obviously there are plenty who are since they are approaching 3x the goal. Good luck - always good to see new film buyers.
My Chamonix 45N-2 comes in at exactly 1550 grams....
Hi, I've just found this thread. The Chroma is mine :)
Thanks for the interest and feedback. just to answer a few of the questions;
The purple versions, like the blue one, have been built as progressively improved designs. My initial build used an off the shelf macro rail, basic traditional front standard and fixed rear. The release version (black) now has independent movements on the front and rise/fall and tilt on the rear standard with integrated focusing. I'm not sure they'd fit in to the 99p store but the point of Chroma is to be an affordable introduction to true technical large format photography. If you would prefer a more traditional looking camera, there are other options.
With regards to durability, I've had an acrylic unit sitting out in my garden for the last 12 months through all 4 seasons and it's not showing any signs of warping/cracking. I've never done the same test on a traditional wooden camera but I'm also not sure I'd want to risk several thousand pounds either!
The focusing bed uses an integrated rack/pinion (like the Intrepid) which moves the rail forwards/backwards. Maximum extension is 300mm and minimum (with a recessed board) is 65mm.
The back of the camera is secured with integrated magnets so it can be rotated simply. The ground glass plate is then also secured into the back with embedded magnets. To fit the film holder you simply remove the ground glass plate, drop the film holder in place (there is rubber integrated into the back for friction) then clip the magnetic ground glass plate back over the top to secure the film holder. I'm currently recording some more detailed videos of the camera functions but the video on my Kickstarter campaign also shows this on an earlier beta build camera.
The standard back can use 4x5 DDS and Fuji Quickload holders and I'm currently drawing up the required plates to secure 4x5 rollfilm backs too. I've also designed a matching 612 rollfilm along with a 4x5 wet plate back which I'm intending to release after the KS reward cameras are shipped.
The weight of the camera is probably as low as it can be with the inherent strength and movements offered. In comparison, the standard Toyo 45AX weighs 2630g so is over 50% heavier and costs £1716 with a 4-6 month lead time on B&H.
Yes, the Chamonix 45N-2 weighs 1550g but it also costs over £1000 so is not something that will encourage new users to large format. I'm not trying to replace a Chamonix/Ebony/Toyo directly but am trying to make Large Format photography affordable, interesting and something that can be approached by new users without being daunted by the thought of spending out £1000 on an unknown (to them) system.
Cheers
Steve
I forgot to add. Whilst your Chamonix is a very nicely made camera, it uses a traditional type front standard without independent controls and has no rear rise/fall. I’m not suggesting my Chroma is the better camera as a result, but at a quarter of the price with more learning opportunities built in I think it is a good proposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Collins
Steve, acrylic is hygroscopic, will take up water from the air. Probably not a problem with y'r camera because the relative humidity is the same on all sides of y'r bits of plastic, but the reason that acrylic sheet makes a very bad aquarium cover. The water side takes up more water than the air side and the sheet warps badly.
But acrylic is less impact resistant than polycarbonate. Have you considered using polycarbonate instead of acrylic? I mean, both are equally machinable ...
Thanks for the advice but the only information I’ve found regarding water absorption is on aquatic forums where acrylic has been used fully submerged in tank sumps 24x7. The manufacturer stats suggests very minimal absorption over the life of the material. Also, the Chroma is made using multiple layers bolted together rather than single large panels so again, I think it’s highly unlikely that any warping will occur. As above, I have an acrylic unit in my garden all year round that has very long flat panels and have seen no ill effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fromm
With regards to polycarbonate, I’ve never seen it in sheet form in anything other than transparent finish (as it generally replaces glass). As a result, it’s not suitable for a camera, hence the use of laminated coloured acrylic.
Go to the Rimowa factory web site in Germany and look at their range of polycarbonate luggage. Polycarbonate is available in a wide range of colors and textures. Rimowa invented polycarbonate luggage and none of them are clear or translucent.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevelmx5
Thanks. As I said though, the availability of polycarbonate in 2/3/5mm thick sheets and multiple colours is limited. Whilst there are finished products like the suitcases you mentioned, the most common sheets are translucent and considerably more expensive than acrylic (up to 10x).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Salomon
Acrylic?
Will it generate static electricity when in use?
How can it hold in sub zero temperatures? Especially if it gets bumped?
I haven’t seen any signs of static build up in my own use and am not really sure in what conditions it would be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie
With regards to sub zero temperatures, acrylic is rated for use down to -20 (and-40 with some manufacturer stats) so I don’t foresee any issues.
Sorry, I did see where you specified thickness, but having visited the Rimowa factory in Köln several times and watched the molding and assembly, from flat sheets of polycarbonate I know that they are using polycarbonate in colors in some of those thicknesses. Of course, with the volume that they have, it is very possible that the pc manufacture produces colors to their specification.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevelmx5
Great for trying, but acrylic is heavy for it's strength, not stiff along it's flat surface, can get brittle, can craze from environmental exposure or strain, not internally interlocked, scratches/scuffs without much effort, needs to be cross-supported as thin stuff will bend/flex along it's surface plane, different internal tensions due to harder outer surfaces to slightly softer core, all parts generally have to be hand worked (edges typically burn a little using laser cutter + flat stock), and not really strong cast...
Now, most makers are forming parts with ABS CNC forming/machining methods, but the internal stiffness and brittle problem still exists for slender pieces (but parts are typically re-inforced with some ribbing)...
I'm not trying to discourage your efforts, but we have been seeing other attempts using high tech to make new LF cameras (and some failures with cracking and other issues), and in this crowd, many are still using over 100 year old examples of gear that is still going strong... And some good new applications of modern materials such as Walker's Titan, so we are not just poo-pooing any new attempts...
I hand you an idea of a semi-traditional approach of materials (if you are going the manual forming route) of light, strong natural materials such as sustainable woods or bamboo to make strong ultralight well designed cameras... (Cross laminated woods can be VERY stiff done right!!!) That would create interest as a "green" camera, feel traditional, and hopefully could be made/sold cheap enough to get them into many hands...
Ask ??? here about what we like/hate about our cameras, and do market research... We can be helpful!!!
Good Luck!!!
Steve K
Thanks a lot for your comment, I appreciate your platitude regarding my attempts to build a camera. All of the issues you've flagged with Acrylic sheet have already been identified and addressed. There are no single large spans (as I'm aware of the inherent flex within acrylic, like all thin sheet materials), any large supporting sections like the main camera bed and uprights, are made up of a number of laminated sheets bolted together for strength and rigidity. I'm not sure if you've ever done any laser cutting of acrylic sheet but there is no burning of the edge or hand finishing required if it's done properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by LabRat
If you take a look at my Kickstarter campaign you will see that this isn't the first camera I've ever built and I've gone through a number of revisions since starting the build 18 months ago. The camera design and functionality has also been compiled following specific feedback from other photographers. I appreciate that many film photographers are still using 100 year old kit, I've also shot with numerous cameras of various vintage (and still do), so am under no illusion that the Chroma is going to appeal to a photographer who prefers a 'classic' camera. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't room in our photographic ventures for an alternative to the norm.
With regards to using bamboo, that's an interesting idea. Have you ever built your own camera? It would be good to share your design ideas too. Finally, I'm currently at 93 backers wanting their own Chroma with 3 weeks left on the campaign so I guess there must be demand for an affordable, unique and modern large format camera.
Steve
Why are you folks trying to re-engineer this guys camera? In case it wasn't obvious, he's already done the design/prototyping/revisions and what you are suggesting is for him to cancel his successful Kickstarter and completely redesign this camera to your specifications or preferences!
Obviously here at the LFPF we all probably have a LF camera or two. We probably aren't a large segment of his intended sales demographic. That's fine of course, and like I mentioned earlier I applaud any effort in this space, even though I am not a customer.
I will say that the only issue I see here is perhaps the potential of eroding the market for new cameras. If there is a constant stream of new LF cameras being put into the market via homegrown manufacturers that are basically one-offs, it could crowd out established manufacturers who have constantly updated and improved their cameras to serve the LF community. Consider Intrepid, which of course started as a Kickstarter but is now on what, ver. 3 of their 4x5, and also have their new 8x10? How many other KS camera manufacturers are still out there working on their designs and servicing their cameras? Of course the foil here is Wanderlust and the Travelwide cameras which are now developing issues and they have disappeared off the face of the earth. In my personal opinion, building your own camera is great, but building a company around it is something completely different. I am not sure what your long-term plan is here, and I am not criticizing you, just commenting on the KS economy in general.
I agree w/ you Corran. Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran
Lost in all of the banter about the materials is the design. It looks pretty cool in black. Independent movements on the front are also very nice. The back with magnets is interesting. Having rise on the back is a great feature. Like Corran says, I have a camera or two (too many) already, so I am not in the market. However, some interesting thought went into the design of this camera.
Thanks a lot for your positivity Corran. As I’ve said, I never set out to replace a more ‘traditional’ camera from the likes of a Chamonix/Ebony/Wista. They are clearly aimed a different market and have a different price level. I’ve built numerous custom cameras before as one off custom builds but always wanted to build my own camera completely and that’s what Chroma is. I realise there are lighter large format cameras, those with a more traditional appeal, and some that will always be ‘classics’ but my campaign shows that there is real interest in something completely different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran
I’ve spent 18 months developing the current design and have built 7 different versions before getting to here, hence my experience of the good and bad sides to using acrylic!
I’ve always been open with my design and the reasons for it and have also made modifications to parts after other, often more experienced, photographers have given their input. Whilst I value all input, I’d like to think the advice comes from an open mind. My intention for Chroma is to focus on delivering the Kickstarter rewards first then look to build on the entire system by adding my own 612 rollfilm back and 4x5 wet plate holders.
Thanks David. My camera shelf also suggests I don’t need any more but if I build it myself I don’t think it counts ;0)Quote:
Originally Posted by David Karp
I wanted to design a camera that I want to pick up and use. I’ve had cameras with traditional front standards before and found them frustrating as changing rise can impact tilt (etc) so independent movements was a must. The rear standard movements were added to the final design, again, to offer more flexibility. As it is, I can put my Chroma, a Quickload holder and a few sheets of Quickload Velvia into a small messenger bag, along with the compact tripod, and take a 30 minute walk at lunchtime, shoot a few images then go back to work. Having this kind of portability and simplicity was critical for my design so I’m really happy with it.
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I apologize for not having read through the entire KS campaign. I just saw down near the bottom about your intention to create an "ecosystem" for your camera. I think this is certainly an important distinction, as opposed to if you wanted to "cash-in" on your design, sell a few, and then abandon the camera to the users who may have issues down the road. I broke my 8x10 camera when I slipped in mud and took a bad fall the first time I used it. Despite having bought it used and it being my fault, the guy who made it gladly sent me a replacement part for it. That's the kind of service that really makes a brand, IMO.
We all shoot differently, and personally while I have a technical camera (Linhof) I always hike and shoot a lot more with my Chamonix, and besides a bit of tilt or swing have little use for such an extensive # of movements. However, when I started shooting LF almost 7 years ago an inexpensive technical camera would have certainly been nice. I was lucky enough to try a variety of 4x5 cameras before arriving on the Chamonix at a good price and have loved it ever since.
Anyway, good luck with the campaign and in the future. BTW, I love the purple color :).
I’m glad you like the purple, I do too :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran
Whilst I haven’t formally documented any kind of warranty, the Chroma is designed to use laminated parts bolted together rather than bonding with adhesive. As well as improving assembly time, this also means individual parts can be replaced easily in the event of any accidents (we all have them at some point!) so I will be happy to replace any parts that are damaged accidentally.
Whilst the KS campaign obviously gives me a start in the business, I don’t intend to take the money and run. Max over at Intrepid has done a great job creating a brand through hard work and customer service. I intend to build something similar with a Chroma going forwards.
Cheers
Steve
"When I am an old camera, I shall be purple" :cool:
I too am a fan of the purple camera. And further, I think you're doing good work here, and wish you the best of it. Much as I love the antique look, I don't have an issue with the use of more modern materials; your comment about a garden full of plastic parts for a year reminded me of the part of our yard at work where we do exactly the same thing with our exterior (and interior) plastic parts.
Might I ask how you're organising your bellows?
Neil
Thanks a lot Neil. Purple is awesome ;0)Quote:
Originally Posted by barnacle
I laser cut the ribs and outer material then assemble the bellows myself.
Steve, like some others here, I'm not in the market, but I applaud your efforts and wish you well. You certainly seem to be on the right track in making an affordable and eminently usable view camera.
The fact that you're already over-funded is cause for optimism in our ranks, since just a few short years ago, we weren't sure how long film would still be available.
As you and Bryan have discussed, after-sale service is of utmost importance, in both near- and long-term, and I'd heartily encourage you to make that your priority once the KS ends.
I'm sure you will, but just reminding you that these days, a company is made or lost on its service, less so on its products.
Again, good luck, and splendid work!
Hmm... I don't suppose you'd be able to supply a kit of bits to make a bellows? (He said hopefully, fully aware that you're probably up to your ears in production...)Quote:
Originally Posted by stevelmx5
Neil
Could not resist placing an order ... always good to have a back up I tell myself, especially in yellow!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I think it is amazing that there will now be 4 different 4x5 cameras for under 300€!
Thanks a lot. I agree that the resurgence in the interest in film is great. Whilst it's never 'died', it has dropped in visibility so the recent surge in new cameras is definitely a good thing to get new photographers interested in the medium. If I can support that in a small way then I will be very happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
Sorry Neil, at the moment I'm working out the demands for building 109 cameras (so far) so I can't really commit to building extras too. If it's something I can come back to down the line, I'll post it on my site. CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by barnacle
That's fantastic, thanks a lot. I'll look out for your yellow Chroma as I'm building :0)Quote:
Originally Posted by angusparker
It's a great time to be involved in film photography. With the good work that Intrepid did 4 years ago to bring their 4x5 to market, along with other companies like Gibellini and Stenopeika there's an option for everyone :0)Quote:
Originally Posted by ZacharyKessin
Thanks, Steve - I rather thought that might be the answer. But I had to ask... there are always a number of people hanging out here with a desire to build our own camera, and the bellows are always the hard part!
Neil